OzRunways as Nav Student?

[aro]

2.2.10 A pilot must advise ATC immediately if issued a clearance which requires the use of navigation aids not available to the aircraft, or the pilot is not qualified to use

 

4.1.2.1.f. The pilot in command of a VFR flight wishing to navigate by means of radio navigation systems or any other means must indicate in the flight notification only those radio navigation aids with which the aircraft is equipped and the pilot is competent to use under CASR 61.385.

 

 

ATC can issue clearances based on nav aids which have built in tolerances for separation. That assumes that the pilot is qualified to use those aids. If you are not qualified, you are not allowed to accept a clearance based on the aids because it might compromise separation. And, you are not allowed to put them in the flight notification because that is what ATC use to know what types of clearances they can issue.

 

OCTA things are more relaxed because separation and navigation is your problem. The requirements for navigation under VFR are that you navigate by reference to ground or water and fix your position by visual reference to features shown on topographical charts at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes. How you determine e.g. which direction you fly is not specified. It could be compass, following roads, NDB, VOR, GPS, flying towards the sun... it doesn't matter as long as you are also using reference to ground or water and fixing your position using features on the chart at least every 30 minutes.

 

If you use radio navigation aids the 30 minutes can be extended to 2 hours and the fix can be determined by radio aids as I referenced previously. However, the navigation and position fixing procedures are quite specific. In particular, when using GPS it must be an "approved area navigation system", which is not an Ipad or even (as I understand it) aviation specific portable GPS.

 

So when using most GPS you are still required to "fix your position by visual reference to features shown on topographical charts at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes".

 

 

[poteroo]

Suffice to say that a CFI should ensure that the cross-country endorsee is capable of planning and navigating by using all the available means. Nothing has really changed. happy days,

 

 

[ian00798]

If you use radio navigation aids the 30 minutes can be extended to 2 hours and the fix can be determined by radio aids as I referenced previously. However, the navigation and position fixing procedures are quite specific. In particular, when using GPS it must be an "approved area navigation system", which is not an Ipad or even (as I understand it) aviation specific portable GPS.

Correct, it’s only the IFR TSO gps that are approved. Basically to be used for navigation of this type it has to have some kind of RAIM system in the software. There are several TSO that meet the standard, but the common ones are TSO 129 or 145/146.

 

 

[KRviator]

Krviator, I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on some aspects of this issue as I believe the requirements are different to how you interpret them, but surely you can agree that some type of training would have to be done prior to actually being competent to use these navaids for primary navigation in anger?

Certainly ian, I think you need some kind training to be able to use a radio navigation system - I have no quarrel with you on that point. But, apart from the 'general competency' requirements of the CASR's, no one has been able to demonstrate the need for any kind of endorsement, rating, or otherwise to be able to plan, and use, a VOR or TSO'd GNSS unit for meeting the navigation & position fixing requirements under the VFR, so long as you can competently use the systems on board.However, the single biggest problem I have with the general competency rule is it is aircraft- and systems- specific. And it doesn't seem to apply to RAAus operations. By that I mean the primary GPS in my RAAus-registered RV-9 is a KLN-90B, a unit that meets TSO C129A for area navigation. But it is also a relatively old unit and nowhere near as popular as, say a GNS-430, as well as being interfaced with my SkyView panel.

 

Try finding a flight instructor who would know that combination sufficiently to be able to teach me to use it, when, because installed it myself and was able to spend hours reading the manual during downtime at work, I'd likely be teaching them. I can demonstrate competency to use the system, but I can't be taught it.

 

 

[frank marriott]

my RAAus-registered RV-9

I must be missing something here, If you are flying RAA you are day VFR anyway. Whatever instruments you have fitted to the aircraft is not relevant.

 

Is the point that you want to put them on a flight plan for some reason? Just don't worry about it.

 

 

[KRviator]

I must be missing something here, If you are flying RAA you are day VFR anyway. Whatever instruments you have fitted to the aircraft is not relevant. Is the point that you want to put them on a flight plan for some reason? Just don't worry about it.

It doesn't particularly concern me, but the comment was made you cannot use GNSS or other radio nav aids under the VFR unless you hold an endorsement of some kind. This is incorrect, and doesn't increase safety one iota.By using GNSS or other approved aids, you can extend the positive-fix time from 30 mins to 2 hours, whether you fly RAAus or not.

 

 

[frank marriott]

By using GNSS or other approved aids, you can extend the positive-fix time from 30 mins to 2 hours, whether you fly RAAus or not.

So you want to/or do fly extended periods VFR "on top". Have I understood you correctly?

 

 

[KRviator]

So you want to/or do fly extended periods VFR "on top". Have I understood you correctly?

No.

[dsam]

I’ve resisted posting here because there is considerable heat in this discussion, but thought I’d tentatively contribute (considering the thread drift since the original post).

 

So next month I am returning to Melbourne to do nav and then get my PPL for further training. Do you guys recommend buying the Private VFR plan for OzRunways this stage or should I leave it until sometime later? Thanks

Here are my observations following extensive RA-Aus (day VFR, OCTA) outback trips:

I have both OzRunways and AvPlan on my iPads. I prefer the user interface of OzRunways over AvPlan, but both are terrific contributors to airborne situational awareness, and preflight planning. I am a strong advocate of modern devices, and redundant independent systems onboard, (including printed maps from my EFB following my planning).

 

My Dynon Skyview has 2 non-tso’d independently powered GPS sources driving the autopilot & moving (Airservices) map. I fly with 2 iPads and 1 phone (all with both EFB’s). My primary iPad remains as a kneedock and has never overheated airborne (though it remains a possibility - along with an overheated knee!). In some 260 hours of Australian flying (some very remote) I have never needed to revert to my paper maps, as all devices closely agreed with one another (Dynon + mobile devices) at all times, (though I never assume that will always be the case, thus the never-needed print-out maps).

 

As for navigational basic training & instruction, yes, Dead Reckoning, clock and compass should be an initial part of training (just as long division with paper and pencil is taught to school kids before a calculator is used). But most certainly, the use of EFB’s must be a major and necessary part of any flying school’s curriculum, in my opinion (both ground and airborne).

 

Fluent use of modern devices (both mobile and panel-mounted) can only enhance situational awareness, lessen cockpit workload, and provide redundancy & peace of mind. Add to this the supplementary traffic awareness (OzRunways + AvPlan + ADSPi-in) and aviation safety can only be enhanced by such modern-device fluency.

 

Yes, the old ways have their rudimentary, fail-safe value (as I studied them in the 1970’s), but wisely used, the present technology is so much more capable!

 

 

[Roscoe]

I’ve resisted posting here because there is considerable heat in this discussion, but thought I’d tentatively contribute (considering the thread drift since the original post).Here are my observations following extensive RA-Aus (day VFR, OCTA) outback trips:

 

I have both OzRunways and AvPlan on my iPads. I prefer the user interface of OzRunways over AvPlan, but both are terrific contributors to airborne situational awareness, and preflight planning. I am a strong advocate of modern devices, and redundant independent systems onboard, (including printed maps from my EFB following my planning).

 

My Dynon Skyview has 2 non-tso’d independently powered GPS sources driving the autopilot & moving (Airservices) map. I fly with 2 iPads and 1 phone (all with both EFB’s). My primary iPad remains as a kneedock and has never overheated airborne (though it remains a possibility - along with an overheated knee!). In some 260 hours of Australian flying (some very remote) I have never needed to revert to my paper maps, as all devices closely agreed with one another (Dynon + mobile devices) at all times, (though I never assume that will always be the case, thus the never-needed print-out maps).

 

As for navigational basic training & instruction, yes, Dead Reckoning, clock and compass should be an initial part of training (just as long division with paper and pencil is taught to school kids before a calculator is used). But most certainly, the use of EFB’s must be a major and necessary part of any flying school’s curriculum, in my opinion (both ground and airborne).

 

Fluent use of modern devices (both mobile and panel-mounted) can only enhance situational awareness, lessen cockpit workload, and provide redundancy & peace of mind. Add to this the supplementary traffic awareness (OzRunways + AvPlan + ADSPi-in) and aviation safety can only be enhanced by such modern-device fluency.

 

Yes, the old ways have their rudimentary, fail-safe value (as I studied them in the 1970’s), but wisely used, the present technology is so much more capable!

Agree completely, with emphasis on the WISELY USED remark

 

 

[Guest RobT]

Last post about weather radar,

 

Understanding Weather Radar

 

Weather Radar: Reducing the Delay >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

 

radar images are not live, and may be anywhere from a few seconds to 10 minutes old depending on the resolution the BOM wants (they usually speed it up when thunderstorms are around) and what part of the 360 deg sweep was done first and last. The time date stamp at the bottom of the radar image is the time of the start of the sweep in UTC it indicates the oldest data used in the compiling of the radar image. There is no delay from the BOM it just takes time for the radar to do its 360 deg sweep (not 100 percent true it does more than one rotation at different elevation angles but to keep it simple 6 to 10 minutes per sweep). The myth that the BOM was delaying radar feed's is simply not true.

 

We have access to this data in the cockpit with EFB it is a huge leap forward in safety along with a host of other benefits and should be part of the training syllabus.

 

 

[dsam]

Considering the original post was for VFR operations, let me state the obvious regarding weather-info on EFB’s: keep your eyes mainly out of the cockpit!

 

It isn’t really relevant to me whether the radar trace is 6 minutes or 16 minutes old. If I see a nasty storm-cell directly ahead, sensible airmanship dictates that I’m not going to aim for it regardless of what my iPad tells me! Instead, I’ll divert and use whatever electronic tools I have at hand to modify my flightplanned route to keep safe and clear.

 

That’s not saying the iPad wx info is useless - quite the contrary. I’m a big advocate. Preflight and airborne, it all benefits safe airmanship and situational awareness.

 

As always, common sense should prevail.

 

 

[djpacro]

- never bothered to get the "ticket" to use my TSO'd GPS in the same way ...

... and never will ...

 

 

[Garfly]

Some recent developments in the US on this front:

 

https://ipadpilotnews.com/2017/11/new-efb-guidance-allows-commercial-operators-display-ship-ipad-flight/

 

Are you legal to fly with the iPad? Use this flow chart to help decide - iPad Pilot News

 

 

[dsam]

There is a crossover benefit derived from knowing and fluently using iPad EFB's. Both OzRunways and AvPlan provide files for Australian Airservices moving-map displays on "glass cockpit" devices such as the Dynon Skyview (as depicted below). A quick glance across the Dynon & iPad shows me a wealth of situational-awareness information. I can quickly see navigational agreement across multiple devices & GPS sources (and easily confirm a fix with the ground features below).

 

My iPad's WiFi connection to the Dynon (& its autopilot) allows me to upload the initial flightplan, or if needed, update the flightplan whilst airborne. For me, this becomes a closed-loop system, whereby my pre-flight planning tool, can remain closely integrated with my airborne software & hardware, all of which contributes to safer operations in the modern EFB / glass cockpit era.

 

 

 

[Garfly]

Flight Chops has a shot at going back to the good ol' ways in a good ol' Super Cub.