Can a RAA flying school refuse to private hire a plane to you with a valid

[SSCBD]

Example - You have a RAA cert and say moved to another area and wanted to go for a fly.

 

Current RAA cert and say with a 100 hours PIC total, and are current on the same type, say flown 3 hours that month.

 

X country endorsed

 

Pax endorsed

 

Plane type has been flown before say over ten hours on that type.

 

Can a RAA flying school refuse to hire the aircraft to you - and yes you are prepared to do say a 20 min check ride anyway with the flying school.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

of course,

 

why won't they rent it too you?

 

 

[SDQDI]

If it is their aircraft I would say that would be well within their rights.

 

 

[SSCBD]

The story - A guy I have know for years, moved for work - he has done his training spent large amounts of money with the school and then flew every couple of weeks hiring the schools aircraft. As said has over 100 hours that was paid to the one flying school.

 

That said - he was refused from the new school, he had moved to the area due work.

 

The school stated that they only hired the aircraft to their own students, and that they only wanted students for training as its was more money to them.

 

This seems to me to be against the spirit and process of learning to fly RAA, for those who don't by an aircraft.

 

Should the RAA have some rule that if people pay membership to be a RAA pilot, that RAA schools should be forced to private hire to members or face being cancelled as a flying school.

 

Is this something RAA should look into and stop schools putting the dollar first - as credibility seems a bit shaky.

 

Anyone else any know of other schools that refuse private hire for pilots not trained by them?

 

P.S. Say a code of conduct by RAA flying schools?

 

 

[SDQDI]

It might be against the spirit but we have to remember schools are businesses that need to remain viable or they won't be there at all and if we were to introduce rules that removed their right to refuse service I think that would be very dangerous.

 

At the end of the day it is their aircraft to use as they seem fit. How would you like it if you owned an aircraft and anyone could hire it and you couldn't say no? That would be a huge blow to your rights.

 

 

[johnm]

if he going to stay in the new work location - why does n't he do some dual flying with that flight school - that might reassure the flight school that 'new bloke' is competent

 

its their aircraft so I guess they choose who fly's it ............... having said that they may be busy enough, the plane is fully utilised and they don't need new customers (........ a rare business that does n't need new business / customers)

 

 

[SSCBD]

SDQDI - yes its a problem - but what are RAA flying schools for - look at it this way - if a flying school only trains to a pilot cert and gets all the dual training money then tells the student to bugger off why go near RAA?

 

I expect as you would, that your RAA cert be recognised Australia wide - would you not? And to be able to hire a plane?(provided experience and ratings are current).

 

If you put yourself in this guys shoes would you expect RAA to get involved or not?

 

if he going to stay in the new work location - why does n't he do some dual flying with that flight school - that might reassure the flight school that 'new bloke' is competentits their aircraft so I guess they choose who fly's it ............... having said that they may be busy enough, the plane is fully utilised and they don't need new customers (........ a rare business that does n't need new business / customers)

NOT the point - he offered to do a check ride paying dual rates. He also has a RAA current cert that issued nationally, issued and overseen by RAA. SO the competency is not the point - IS IT?

The flying school stated to him - "they only want students for dual training" ( code for more money)

 

 

[octave]

Many flying school aircraft are privately owned and cross hired to the flying school I would imagine that the actual aircraft owner may impose conditions on the cross hire arrangement. Frustrating, I know but if I owned a plane I would be fussy about who flies it..

 

 

[SSCBD]

Many flying school aircraft are privately owned and cross hired to the flying school I would imagine that the actual aircraft owner may impose conditions on the cross hire arrangement. Frustrating, I know but if I owned a plane I would be fussy about who flies it..

Being the devils advocate - so you want students going solo in that aircraft - sure the owner is happy with that argument?

 

 

[johnm]

..... are you sure thats it ? SSCBD

 

in the course of students flight training - at some time the student must do solo work (god forbid) - assuming the solo rate is then charged to the student when the student flies solo

 

 

[SSCBD]

..... are you sure thats it ? SSCBDSending students (and I sent many off) solo used to scare the hell out of me.

 

But thankfully all came back with no damage or stuff ups. (cross fingers).

 

However this guy I have sympathy for, as its a joke if this is the way RAA flying school are working now.

(Off to work in the real world now for a few hours. ) see how this develops?

 

 

[SDQDI]

For sure I expect my certificate to be recognised all across Australia BUT I certainly respect the right of any person or school to refuse to hire to me.

 

I certainly wouldn't expect RAA to step in and force anyone to hire to me and I would be extremely disappointed in them if they did do that for me or anyone else.

 

It is the flight schools business, it is the flight schools plane they can sit it in the shed and do nothing with it if they so desire. You are flogging a dead horse if you think it should be different. At the end of the day you just have to go to someone who will hire to you, if there is no one else within a cooee then that is tough but it is not unusual to have to travel to find a hire plane in the sticks.

 

 

[red750]

If they are a commercial business, one would assume they would want their assets working, earning an income, not sitting idle. If their training fully utilised the aircraft, that's a different matter.

 

I know what you mean about cross-hired aircraft, Octave. I learnt at a school that had a line of Musketeers. When Piper introduced Warriors, they updated the fleet to Warriors. They also had a Bonanza on the line for charters and private hire. Then they introduced a privately owned Piper Arrow to the line on cross hire. The condition to check out and hire the Arrow was that you had to be endorsed on the Bonanza. I guess they figured if you can fly the Bo, you can fly the Arrow. So I got endorsed on the Bonanza so I could hire the Arrow, much cheaper than the Bo.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Why doesn't this person simply purchase their own aircraft and hire it out to anyone holding an RPC? They've identified an issue, they could take the initiative, resolve it and make a huge amount of profit along the way!

 

 

[NT5224]

Why doesn't this person simply purchase their own aircraft and hire it out to anyone holding an RPC? They've identified an issue, they could take the initiative, resolve it and make a huge amount of profit along the way!

Haha! Smart response to the OP. Im with SDQDI on this one. I certainly wouldnt want to be obliged to rent my bird out to anybody who wanted to fly it.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Haha! Smart response to the OP. Im with SDQDI on this one. I certainly wouldnt want to be obliged to rent my bird out to anybody who wanted to fly it.

I've run and owned flying schools over the years, my response was in some ways tongue in cheek - but realistic. If you don't like the situation fix it - don't go crying to RAAus

I had one customer do an hours dual. After the flight he insisted on sweeping the hangar floor, then claimed that was his method of paying for the flight. I graciously accepted his offer and told him to find somewhere else to fly - he didn't understand why?!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Example - You have a RAA cert and say moved to another area and wanted to go for a fly.Current RAA cert and say with a 100 hours PIC total, and are current on the same type, say flown 3 hours that month.

 

X country endorsed

 

Pax endorsed

 

Plane type has been flown before say over ten hours on that type.

 

Can a RAA flying school refuse to hire the aircraft to you - and yes you are prepared to do say a 20 min check ride anyway with the flying school.

The answer is yes; only organisations designated Common Carriers can't refuse someone. Examples of Common Carriers are government trains, buses, private buses under government contract.

Given that it's a Flying School, the primary business would be training students who may book at any time for a flight. If the aircraft is not available, particularly if this is a regular problem, sometimes they walk, so the school loses core business.

 

We discussed the issues associated with private hire just a few days ago; the under-utilisation per day while the aircraft is away, weather delays of several days at a time - these things dramatically reduce business for a flying school, which usually stands Instructors down when their aircraft are not available. It's a similar situation in GA.

 

A Flying Club has a totally different outlook and time scale (although there may have been no choice in this case).

 

So it doesn't have to be that the operator doesn't trust the pilot or the pilot has a bad reputation.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

if he going to stay in the new work location - why does n't he do some dual flying with that flight school - that might reassure the flight school that 'new bloke' is competentits their aircraft so I guess they choose who fly's it ............... having said that they may be busy enough, the plane is fully utilised and they don't need new customers (........ a rare business that does n't need new business / customers)

Agree. May be; do a low level endorsement at the same time and restart when his BFR is due again. LL should give them confidence in his ability (once passed) and then may be able to hire the aircraft. Cheers

 

 

[fly_tornado]

imagine if the flying schools just let any Joe with a RPC use their planes, the school wouldn't make any money because their planes are busy flying and would have to close.

 

 

[farri]

As far as I`m aware, there are only RA-Aus approved, 'Flight Training Facilities', not 'Aircraft Hiring Facilities'...The decision to hire out, or not, should remain with the owner/s of the aircraft.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Nobody]

I suspect there is more to the story....

 

I am not a current RAAus member (its lapsed) but I have hired GA aircraft both in Australia and the USA. When I have wanted to hire at a new location, I have always had to do a checkout with an instructor first. Often this was a trip out to the training area, a few stalls, and steep turns followed by a few circuits, usually a short field landing or a flapples one depending on the instructors mood and an engine failure in the

 

circuit. Usually about an hours flight time. After that I was free to book and rent as I liked. A few times the type of aircraft they had was one that I hadn't flown before and the training was an perhaps an additional hour.

 

Some operators were very busy training and wouldn't for instance let you take an aircraft away early in the morning stop for lunch and fly back late in the afternoon only having put an hour or two on the plane. They would have otherwise had about 5 or 6 hours of income from training. At other operators their aircraft were a lot less utilized, one I rented from let me take an aircraft away for 3 weeks!!!!

 

I can't imagine an operator completely refusing to hire an aircraft to someone qualified, perhaps it was a number of days very flying hours type thing.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

This same scenario is common throughout GA flying school establishments.

 

A school is a school not necessarily a hiring establishment.

 

Hiring to non students often involves flights away with time on the ground at the destinations and that time is usually unpaid time. So a flying school may end up having bona fide students unable to fly while an aircraft sits on the ground somewhere while the hirer is at a fly in, camping trip or whatever.

 

Then over time your students get annoyed because you don't have an aircraft when they are able to fly and they go elsewhere.

 

So you lose your core business as well as often get only partial returns for the hours your own aircraft is unavailable to you.

 

Easiest way to keep your aircraft earning is, if you have the student load, keep your aircraft for your core business.

 

 

[Pominaus]

I don't know the rates at this school, but around me the schools are defo making quite a bit more on lessons than they are from hiring, especially when it comes to taking the plane, laying over and returning. so the hiring side of things is just additional revenue options for when all the planes are on the ground.

 

I actually got quite confused by the full story... so he built up 100 hours at school A, endorsements and what not, then went to school B and they said no?

 

To be honest it is the height of the 'back to the sky' season - lots of schools around here are chockers right now, they might genuinely have enough students to fill the plane with dual time, or maybe as they say they prioritise their own ex students hiring over randoms.. makes sense to me..

 

However on the question should it be a requirement of RAA membership... no way! Someone, the school, another company, an indevidual owns that plane with their own money, and should (laws permitting) be able to do with it as they please. Now standard discrimination laws apply - if they won't let you hire it because you're from Melbourne and they're from Sydney you might have a case, but no I don't think that's a good idea. Ultimately the person offering the hire should be able to say no to an airline pilot if they just saw them hoon into the car park and aren't feeling good about the way they might treat the plane.

 

Honestly if you put in the rules that anyone offering a plane for hire has to accept anybody with the right ticket if the plane is available, you'd just see a lot of for hire planes get pulled pretty quick and we'd all lose.

 

 

[red750]

In other words, if you can't afford to own a plane, don't bother learning to fly, at least RAA.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

There is a helicopter school at Toowoomba that trains you but then won't private hire to you.

 

My suggestion is that if you want to be in recreational/private/gliding figure out how you are going to own your own aircraft before starting. It's tough but that's the way it is and being away to take the aircraft away for as long as you please is heaps of fun particularly if you can share it with your partner.