Not-Kosh 2018 Proposal ...

[bull]

Now all you have to do bull is separate those dogs, kids, and drunks from props. All have featured in past displays at some time, not to mention the guy who prop started his aircraft with the throttle open

Please Turbo can you give me ONE example [besides the runaway plane] of anyone ever in the last 30 yrs be they drunks or dogs or kids of walking into a prop at a flyin in Australia???as you lawyers seem to make it out like this happens every year at many uncontrolled [red neck] uncivilised or mum and dad and uncle Bob events,,,please could you supply the links to these nasty happenings at aussie flyins every year mate to justify your great fear of props???

 

 

[turboplanner]

Please Turbo can you give me ONE example [besides the runaway plane] of anyone ever in the last 30 yrs be they drunks or dogs or kids of walking into a prop at a flyin in Australia???as you lawyers seem to make it out like this happens every year at many uncontrolled [red neck] uncivilised or mum and dad and uncle Bob events,,,please could you supply the links to these nasty happenings at aussie flyins every year mate to justify your great fear of props???

Although not at flyins two spring to mind; the golfer who had his arm ripped off and the guy who chopped himself up at Parafield.

We helped an aboriginal community set up a track once, and since our crowd protection had been developed from previous accidents, they knew they couldn’t compromise on the specifications but they only had about 50 spectators, so they built the safety structure around the 50 seats.

 

 

[bull]

Although not at flyins two spring to mind; the golfer who had his arm ripped off and the guy who chopped himself up at Parafield.We helped an aboriginal community set up a track once, and since our crowd protection had been developed from previous accidents, they knew they couldn’t compromise on the specifications but they only had about 50 spectators, so they built the safety structure around the 50 seats.

Well both the above mentioned events that you provided are more to do with pilots own training [so do we ban instructors too?] and have really nothing to do with the question I asked you, so please stop with the political speak and provide REAL answers to the question asked please??? sorry about going offline there for a minute, I had to fill out a risk assessment about tasting the lovely chicken soup that my loving partner is cooking me straight out of the pot, and dipping the same spoon in more then twice to validate the fact that it tasted awesome,,,And high on the list was ,one,,,getting stabbed by her,,,two spilling burning liquid apon myself and ,three, burning my throut by doing it so quick she could not catch me,,,,well after a minute of study and a quick flick through mountains of safety culture books , I reasoned that the taste of the soup was worth the risk, so bugger it I just did it,,,,and you know what Turbo?? I did not get stabbed or burned by scalding liquid nor did I burn my throat ,,,but that soup is delicious so I reckon it was worth the risk,,,see I do take your lawyery advice velly carefully mate thanks........[ps About your example of the country aboriginal races you provided,, I don't know how you got away with it as I have lived and worked with communities from cape York to broome and it,s amazing you did not get a riot on your hands,,or did you put the bar inside that fence with the seats??as that would have worked a treat..............

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

OK - maybe I have a simple mind, bit most airfields have done their risk assessment and put in lace what is required to cater for the public visiting as well. A fly-in of this nature is merely a bunch of pilots agreeing to meet at an airfield for a social occasion, have a BBQ or meal, maybe a camping sleepover at an airfield that normally allows it anyway, and therefore apart from what @bull has done to reinforce those rules and requirements, what else should be required? After all, the only difference is that a hangar may be opened up (and aircraft relocated??) to cater for dinner and some members of the public may attend...

 

No need to overcomplicate - or put in this forum - only members of the forum or pilots who actually fly in (or pre-notify arriving by some other means) will be allowed.

[farri]

How about adults start acting as adults and take responsibility for their own actions!!! Having done many high risk activities in my life, the way I see it, no amount of risk assessment or regulation will ever cover everything that could possibly occur...

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

How about adults start acting as adults and take responsibility for their own actions!!! Having done many high risk activities in my life, the way I see it, no amount of risk assessment or regulation will ever cover everything that could possibly occur...Frank.

The problem is they don't; and then someone gets hurt and sues.

You have a duty of care to protect people from reasonably forseeable risks, not everything that could possibly occur.

 

 

[bull]

The problem is they don't; and then someone gets hurt and sues.You have a duty of care to protect people from reasonably forseeable risks, not everything that could possibly occur.

So what is ""reasonable foreseeable risk about people walking into props without the incident history to back it up ,,even with your two examples you provided [which really cant be used as they where not at a flyin] but even with them , the amount of flyins each year all over Australia number at least 100 a year,and times that by the last 30 years , with only those two incidents you get a result of 3000 flyins with only two prop incidents [not really related to flyins anyway] still gives you a risk factor of less then 1 %,so going by this risk assessment at 1% the risk of prop strike to people at flyins is less than the risk of someone being struck by lightning, So there is no real justification for the heavy handed approach towards crowd control and FENCING is there Turbo ,,,So using this as a fact sheet the ONLY reason I can see for the requirement of expensive insurance and litigation protection provided by LAWYERS is to increase the PROFIT margins of LAWYERS don't you think TURBO Mr Lawyer??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

 

[bull]

The problem is they don't; and then someone gets hurt and sues.

So it is a provable fact that people DONT BEHAVE AND ACT LIKE ADULTS AT REGIONAL FLYINS, ah TURBO, can you please provide provable facts about these incidents that you say are happening at regional flyins and list the actual injuries and deaths that you SAY occur????please list them in dated order and use a4 size sheet of paper cause that will leave heaps of room for comments as the known incidents that have occurred at regional flyins in the last 30 years are in the single digits......................Please PROVE me wrong on this one Turbo and you know as a LAWYER how important provable facts are in a court ah????

[turboplanner]

Calm down bull, I'm not a lawyer so you can keep that to yourself.

 

A live prop is a reasonably forseeable risk with a crowd, including children milling around. There doesn't have to be a prior incident; for example there had been nothing like Le Mans in 1995 in world history.

 

I've already posted on how the Aerobatics organisers at Ballarat separated the aircraft from the crowd, and if anyone gets the vapours at having to hold up a piece of orange plastic for a few minutes, they are in the wrong business.

 

Plenty of people are successfully conducting fly-ins right now without the histrionics, and the concept being discussed here doesn't present a problem to organise, it's just how you manage it.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

Does it have to be an advertised "fly-in". An "informal gathering" might work better. I was once ,almost, a founding member of the "Victorian Sidecar Club" when all this Liability s**t came up. 20+ years ago!

 

Myself and others decided not to go ahead with the formal founding of a "club" but agreed upon the sidecar owners group.(no capitals) No members, with no association, or any other details. ....Worked a treat. Each was responsible for his own safety and well being. We had some great runs.

 

It appears to me that as soon as you advertise a gathering then you, (the organiser) become liable for everybody's well being, how much they eat and drink, how all the visitors behave, invited or not. every bit like a school outing. Literally. I can control myself quite well, but there are others that display reckless behaviour with gay abandon. I don't want to be held responsible for them.

 

 

[bull]

Calm down bull, I'm not a lawyer so you can keep that to yourself.A live prop is a reasonably forseeable risk with a crowd, including children milling around. There doesn't have to be a prior incident; for example there had been nothing like Le Mans in 1995 in world history.

I've already posted on how the Aerobatics organisers at Ballarat separated the aircraft from the crowd, and if anyone gets the vapours at having to hold up a piece of orange plastic for a few minutes, they are in the wrong business.

 

Plenty of people are successfully conducting fly-ins right now without the histrionics, and the concept being discussed here doesn't present a problem to organise, it's just how you manage it.

Totally Agree with that,,,,,but a well run flyin with prior arranged rules concerning engine starts and areas where this is permitted leaves no danger to the public or that drunk john and his uncontrolled dog that the children are chasing do,s it???? This misconception that a regional flyin needs a ss type security force with draconian safety rules based on no prior evidence of danger , and a outragest demands for over the top insurance coverage ,,,,,what a load of codswollop....................

 

 

[bull]

Calm down bull, I'm not a lawyer so you can keep that to yourself.A live prop is a reasonably forseeable risk with a crowd, including children milling around. There doesn't have to be a prior incident; for example there had been nothing like Le Mans in 1995 in world history.

I've already posted on how the Aerobatics organisers at Ballarat separated the aircraft from the crowd, and if anyone gets the vapours at having to hold up a piece of orange plastic for a few minutes, they are in the wrong business.

 

Plenty of people are successfully conducting fly-ins right now without the histrionics, and the concept being discussed here doesn't present a problem to organise, it's just how you manage it.

Your words say it all,,,,,a LIVE PROP,,,,,,now going back to the prior discussed engine starting and areas rules at flyins that are well managed there is ZERO risk of anyone coming into contact with a LIVE prop as all display aircraft and aircraft on the flightline that are available for inspection by the public ,, have been disabled electrically ,,ie all keys removed and master battery keys removed,, so therefore their props are not LIVE but very much DEAD,would you not agree??????ps all well trained pilots should know to never leave a engine in a LIVE condition with either mags turned on or keys turned on

 

 

[Nobody]

Lets not get too off track making up reasons not to have an event. The many regional flyins that occur across the country every year is testament to the fact that they can still be successfully run.

 

The real issue is the lack of an organiser, is anyone going to step up to run the event?

 

 

[Yenn]

Having been involved with a fly in where the public have access to the flight line and where aircraft taxi, while the public stand or walk alongside and we have had no incidents. I would consider the pilots are capable of due care and the public are not as stupid as some might think.

 

I would also point out that this show has been going for 25 years and dogs are never allowed on the property.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

@turboplanner is right in that one owes a duty of care to those around them for reasonably foreseeable risk - though there are some caveats to that too (proximity in terms of are you their keeper is one of those). So for example, your look around and clear-prop call should be good enough to alleviate you of liability of someone walking into the prop as you/after you start the engine, unless you mechanically did the actions without taking notice of the easily seen bystander admiring your prop in plain view in front of you... The key is it has to be a) a reasonably foreseeable risk and b) a reasonable duty of care - and the terms reasonable are interpreted by the court given the circumstances of the case. The fact that a foreseeable risk has yet to materialise and there is no history of it having materialised in the past is of no concern to the law - I guess the word foreseeable rather than historical is the pertinent word (historical is used by insurance companies to beef up premiums)..

 

Also, the sad fact is that there is a tiny minority of people in any facet of life are usually irresponsible or negligent and unfortunately society has developed to take the easy way out by restricting everyone because of the actions of a few, rather than working out a way to identify and prove the bad actions of a few and dealing with them.

 

@Nobody is right - just have an informal gathering at an airfield - I hadn't read all of the above posted CAP, but I don't think it will be caught by it. Otherwise anytime your local aero club did a fly away, technically it would be a fly in to wherever they were going and it would have to come under the same rules.

 

(p.s. I am not a lawyer!)

[red750]

Two examples of aircraft on display with no danger to the public. The An-2 was conducting joyflights and was barricaded by an orange plastic fence and supervised by staff, the other was in a hangar with a viewing platform alongside so visitors could see in the cockpit.

 

 

On the other hand, at airports where an ASIC is required, you get this situation.

 

 

 

 

[farri]

Just a thought: If the object is to create an ongoing event, how about forming a Nonprofit Incorporated Association?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Two examples of aircraft on display with no danger to the public. The An-2 was conducting joyflights and was barricaded by an orange plastic fence and supervised by staff, the other was in a hangar with a viewing platform alongside so visitors could see in the cockpit.[ATTACH]52610[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]52611[/ATTACH]

 

On the other hand, at airports where an ASIC is required, you get this situation.

 

[ATTACH]52612[/ATTACH]

Isn't the ASIC thing to protect inside the fence, not the general public?

*ducks for cover*

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Just a thought: If the object is to create an ongoing event, how about forming a Nonprofit Incorporated Association?Frank.

If it is to be a fully fledged event, makes sense; otherwise, I would suggest if you want it an informal fly in, then it would attract unwanted risk mitigation.

 

 

[farri]

Five Reasons to Incorporate Your Nonprofit Association

 

As I`ve said above, " If the objective is to create an on going event".

 

I`m aware of the commitment required in forming and maintaining a Nonprofit Incorporated Association...When I was President of the Far North Queensland Ultralight Association, I required we become Incorporated as I`d made my land available to the club and so we did.

 

Frank

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Why not run it under the RAAus company? Get enough support from members and away you go! They seemed happy to sink $30K into Narromine, surely a low key fly-in for members would be achievable?

 

 

[farri]

My take on Bex`s original post is that he is suggesting something more than just a low key fly-in and not in line with RA-Aus.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

My take on Bex`s original post is that he is suggesting something more than just a low key fly-in and not in line with RA-Aus.Frank.

If members want it, whether that be low key or bigger, make it so?

Forget the airshow display, make it a social / flying / educational event. Perhaps an air-rally for those travelling from afar too.

 

 

[bull]

If members want it, whether that be low key or bigger, make it so?Forget the airshow display, make it a social / flying / educational event. Perhaps an air-rally for those travelling from afar too.

And with no profit chasing companies to overrule the event with the chasing of that profit margin,[Airventure Australia,for profit company]etc

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

An interesting fly-in: Curry By Air 2018 - FLYER Forums (Ian - I am sure these forums aren't competitors to yours - if they are, pls feel free to remove the post).

 

One that is usually organised every four years: Raduno 2016: 22 June - 26/27 June - FLYER Forums

 

We also have some pretty strict requirements when organizing events, but these are just friendly get togethers. and dispense with the idea of a formal event.

 

Some remaining photos of the 2014 flyin: RADUNO 2014 - Page 2 - FLYER Forums

 

Even something a little bigger would not fall foul of the rules if it was kept in the spirit of people simply gathering at an airfield.