Not-Kosh 2018 Proposal ...

[Downunder]

Are the "general public" wanted or needed?

 

 

[JG3]

REX flys into Moruya so that will be a 'secure' airport!

Moruya is the most secure airport I've ever visited. Double electric fence plus a light beam!

And Twice required to show ASIC card up close for detail.....

 

 

[JG3]

I did mention a 6 month spacing away from OzKosh. Easter is a good idea.

What a good idea!

Easter is when the traditional Narromine Fly-In used to be held, and that was very popular, with 200+ aircraft flying in.

 

Narromine is still the best venue, with very convenient facilities for camping or soft accommodation, and locals who welcome such an event and have experience how to host it.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well I do enjoy the airshow side of things. I don't see myself travelling too far for a flyin with no other attractions. I don't mind an hour or two flight each way but any further than that and I won't be going as that would require an overnighter which takes me away from the family (they won't want to go if there is only a flyin) which is the total opposite to what should be happening at holiday times like Easter.

 

I think if you trawl through the old threads when natfly (or whatever it was called) was on at Easter time you will find plenty of people saying they couldn't come because of family commitments.

 

Are the "general public" wanted or needed?

I personally think the public needs to be included especially if we are interested in the long term health of our sport. Now that doesn't have to be at every flyin but I think it is very important to include them. The more we can let the general public see we are not elitist rich pricks the more we will have their support when it comes to aviation matters.

 

 

[JG3]

I think if you trawl through the old threads when natfly (or whatever it was called) was on at Easter time you will find plenty of people saying they couldn't come because of family commitments.

.

Good point on family commitments at Easter.....

 

Also, Easter moves around a lot.

 

So choose a weekend in that time of year based on the the best weather history.

 

But focus it like the old Narromine Fly-Ins.

 

No emphasis on the wide public, but make a special effort to appeal to those interested in getting involved in our sport, and want to spend their time browsing the flightline up close and talking to aircraft owners and maybe going for a ride or two to experience our world. That's a treasured memory that I have of the old Narromine, feeling like I've helped someone into our sport, and I'm sure that there are some flying now whom I've encouraged at those good old fly-ins. That's a far more effective way to ensure the future health of our sport.....

 

Compromises trying to please too wide an audience seldom work well for anyone..... Let those who just want entertainment go to the airshows, but leave us the airspace and freedom to visit with other flyers and prospective flyers and take them for a ride whenever it feels right.......

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Agree with @JG3, but I would suggest speaking to the local scout groups/AAL squadrons and similar to let them know there will be a fly in and they're welcome to come pop in and have a chat and wander around - and depending in liability laws in Aus, if somoeone's going up, they may be lucky and catch a ride. Seeing grass-roots aviation for what it is rather than though the restrictions of airshows may spark the interests of kids that may be lost through all other distractions. Also, may get mum and dad interested, too...

[bull]

What a good idea!Easter is when the traditional Narromine Fly-In used to be held, and that was very popular, with 200+ aircraft flying in.

Narromine is still the best venue, with very convenient facilities for camping or soft accommodation, and locals who welcome such an event and have experience how to host it.

Cruise on up to the Lakeside Easter flyin at Midge point in Qld

 

 

[Downunder]

Compromises trying to please too wide an audience seldom work well for anyone..... Let those who just want entertainment go to the airshows, but leave us the airspace and freedom to visit with other flyers and prospective flyers and take them for a ride whenever it feels right.......

I think the "public" flyin is basically the Airventure that we have just had. No need to rehash that.

 

I'm all for a "flyers" flyin. The public not excluded but they can take it or leave it.... A flyin made for aviation enthusiasts, pilots, aircraft owners and the like.

 

 

[Nobody]

Easter or Not? (I said this one might be contentious when I suggested Easter,and while I favor Easter personally, I can also see the negatives)

 

For. I recognize that some people have family commitments but there are others who can't easily get time off work. Easter gives you 4 days which means that people can have 1 day of travel, a day at the event and a day of travel home with a day of float for bad weather. And while Easter dates do move they are well known in advance. This is one less decision for the organizers and means that people can lock it in well in advance. One of the reasons that the US airshows are so well attended is that people know the dates a year (or more) in advance. It then allows them to book accommodation for next year as they leave this years event. The Australian events seem to go on hiatus for a few months after each one as decisions are made about the next event. Do you know when the Airventure Narromine will be held next year? Ozkosh or one of the earlier events even changed dates a few moths out to avoid a clash. At least if it is consistently Easter people will know when it is.

 

Against Some people will want to spend Easter with their families. If the event moves from location to location as a traveling event then there may be times when the weather at Easter is not the best at that location.

 

Airshow or Not? I think that it is best not to have one for this event. For this new event to be successful it needs to compliment events that already exist rather than competing with them. If it competes with the the Narromine Airventure then it is likely that the market wont be large enough to sustain both, possibly leading to both failing. We would then be left with no events. There are also events like Wings over Illawarra and Hunter Valley Airshow just to name two events local to Sydney (there are other examples in other states) that cater to those that want to go to an airshow. By not holding an airshow the organisation and logistics are simplified. If it just a group of pilots flying in to a location for the weekend formal positions like safety directors are not required and there is no need for CASA approval. It also lowers the cost of running the event eliminating the need for entry tickets. Some people will still come to look at the aircraft and they might actually talk to a pilot and realize that a jabiru isn't really that expensive compared to many other pastimes. They might even imagine themselves flying one, whereas watching an airshow they are very unlikely to imagine themselves flying a souped up Pitts Special.

 

Location My suggestion is that the event travels from place to place each time it is held. This would allow it to be used strategically to breath life into the aviation sector in an area. You could show to a community the benefit of having an airport rather than closing it down to build more houses. If the event became successful you might find that there are many locations keen to host it. It would if the location of the event was picked 14 month out from the event that way at end of one event you can say to people see you next year at ..... and get them thinking about coming...

 

 

[Jabba jenny]

Swan Hill.?

 

 

[poteroo]

Before going too far with the 'lets include the general public' theme - read the new 60 page CASA Air Display Administration and Procedures Manual. It appears to very much widen the liability/compliance net for Flyins and small airshows. Read it and we'll continue this thread. happy days,

 

 

[farri]

Air Display Administration and Procedure Manual | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

[bexrbetter]

What "Air Display"?

 

 

[SDQDI]

It seems by their definition that a flyin with public notice (like maybe notice on a public forum such as this?) is an air display.

 

But in the example it mentions for a competition or event so I am not sure how a flyin for a flyins sake stacks up.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It seems by their definition that a flyin with public notice (like maybe notice on a public forum such as this?) is an air display.

The 'Pickurplace' Lions Club annual sausage sizzle charity fundraiser held at 'Pickurplace' airport is not a Fly-In.

 

It's just a great event to support conveniently located at an airfield.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I wonder if the judge would use the phrase "if it looks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is probably a duck"?

 

I think if you are going to have a big flyin (and just a flyin) then I think it would be worth the effort to tick the boxes, after all what everyone seems to be hinting at is a little bigger than a little aeroclub get together and it would be a shame to bring unnecessary attention onto us from the regulator.

 

 

[Nobody]

A gathering of aircraft at an event or competition not on the basis of a general public invitation (A club event where no invitation is made to the general public [[similar clubs or groups exempted]) does not need to apply for an air display approval from CASA. CASA recommends that the safety management and third party considerations are followed.

The invite might read:

 

The "Australian Association of Magnificent Men(and Women) and their Flying Machines"(AAMMWFM) invite members, prospective members and members of like minded organisations to gather at XXXX for their annual flyin to celebrate the miracle of flight...

 

I haven't checked the regulations but it is also possible that the definition of an air display in the regulations is different to that in their manual. It wouldn't be the first time that CASA have tried to impose rules that don't exist.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

bring unnecessary attention onto us from the regulator.

I have no problem working with Governing bodies who are reasonable people. I had a great working relationship with Motorcycling Australia (MA), and on the other hand, had input into helping an opposing body against the Confederation of Australian Motorsport (CAMS) who liked to believe they could dictate, and in short time found out under Australian Law that they could not, hence the birth of the Australian Auto Sport Alliance (AASA).

 

The problem with CAMS was they were paying too much attention to the upper end of motorsports, V8 Supercars, F1 etc, and forgetting about the little Fella, while using the little Fella's money to cater for the big boys. The little Fella's struck back with their own Governing body, and all of the FIA and CAMS might couldn't stop the basic legal right to Govern one's own sporting body with members in Australia.

 

The AASA actually deferred motorcycle licences back to MA last year because MA are flexible and will work with others.

 

Other Australian Sporting Governing bodies have also found out in modern times that they wield a stick far shorter than they think, especially when it comes to Professionals earning money under other Governing bodies (as CAMS famously found out in Court with Peter Brock).

 

I have had no dealings with CASA personally to form a judgement, and this is not aimed at them, just a note that you're not as helpless as you might think.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I wonder if the judge would use the phrase "if it looks like a duck and talks like a duck then it is probably a duck"?

Agreed.. I am responsible for implementing compliance with some pretty hefty regulations at the moment, and small drafting anomalies will not change liability.

 

I haven't read the whole doc, but Appendix F states:

 

"Fly-in, Competition or Cross country event – A gathering of aircraft at an event or competition where the general public have been specifically invited to the event. E.g. World gliding competition. Note. This does not include a Fly-in where the general public have not been invited to, such as a local aero club Fly-in."

 

Most of what's required for a fly in (or comp) seems something that commonsense would require, anyway (OK - I make that assertion from the title of what is required - not the detail within the provisions of the doc).

 

They are:

 

• Site Survey - well, it's an airfield and has parking... Also, should be somewhere the public can gather safely.. Dunnies will have flies hoverring and women's will run out of loo paper faster than a F18 flies with afterburners on.
   
   
   
  
• Marking of Display Axis - A white rectangular box around the BBQ marks the display axis.
   
   
   
  
• Parking of a/c - Please ensure you pack you aircraft off the runway and taxiways. Also, don't park at the pub, even if you take the wings off (reference some QLD event a couple of years ago).
   
   
   
  
• Min height settings - Hmmm tough one.. Circuit heights - but use QFE to confuse CASA.
   
   
   
  
• Wx minima - erm.. refer to VFR minima; add a bit if the airport is an alitport.
   
   
   
  
• Briefing - Er - refer to the AIP, ERSA and some other commercial guide. If there are a lot of pilots about - lookout.
   
   
   
  
• Sample Schedule - Airfield open at x; closes at y; BBQ starts at 12:30
   
   
   
  
• Joy/Adventure/TIF Ops -This is a fly in! If you're lucky enough to be offered a ride (in the airplane, not the other type - although that could be lucky, too, depending on whom the ride is with), then it is at your risk becaue even CASA have deemed is us to be dangerous fruitcakes heelbent on destroying the earth.
   
   
  
• Post Display Departure Planning: Please use the same planning technique you were taught - it usually works.
   
   
  
• Post Display Report (Form 694) - What display?
   
   
  

 

 

The above should do it... Feel free to use it; even royalty free..

 

 

[johnm]

oh how we are living in stupidity .................. this thread reminds me of the QLD anti gang laws (revoked) that from memory stated it was illegal for 3 or more gang members to congregate

 

apart from this thread being collusive ((fraudulently contrived by agreement) - love it .... keep it going) ........ the definition of 'flyin' surely must be written by those same smart bods from QLD ?

 

but, its easy me for to throw rocks at a legislator and yes surely the legislator feels insulted at my lack of understanding - however, irrespective of the legislator's vastly superior understanding on the subject I still can't think its all inane legislation and the 'age of reason' surely must be around the corner

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

We have very bloated bureaucracies.. They have to justify their livings... I did a gig (note, consulted to, not worked for) one of the [edit] Aussie [/edit]state health and safety authorities... The old timers there were pretty well reasoned actually - understood the objectives of the organisation and had practical ideas about how to implement them while minimising the impact on their "clients". The corporate younger one were concerned with three objectives:

 

1. How to extract more money from their "clients"
    
    
   
2. How to justify their empires through ever increasing rules and regulations
    
    
   
3. How to punish those for even the most minor transgression - very black and white approach. I kid you not, but a judge threw out a case against an employer who's son was killed by a minor oversight in the application of H&S rules - the reasoning being the father has suffered a punishment for it way beyond anything the court could impose (and a spokesperson for the authority went on air, unbelievably to state how disappointed he was of the decision)
    
    
   

 

 

Oh, and there were the middle and back office support functions that were next to useless...

 

None of their measures seemed to relate to hard evidence and numbers of the risks they were protecting/mitigating.

 

Relating this to aviation.. Well, I can't comment on CASA (in fact, I havebeen watching their out and back series and it is actually something to applaud, even though one could argue it doesn't delve enough into the subject matter). But I can say, EASA (and JAA beforehand) added a lot of rules and regs and obligations, yet it has made not a drop of difference to the accident, injury and fatality rates..

 

I will now put down my last glass from my last bottle of Petaluma Shiraz (if they still make it, pls let me know - can no longer get it here)

 

 

[red750]

How about:

 

Airport Open Day.

 

See a range of aircraft on display, from factory built to amateur built, ultralight, touring, training, vintage and gyrocopters.

 

Meet and chat with pilots and home-builders.

 

No airshow or flying displays - the only aircraft movements will be arrival and departure of visiting aircraft of all kinds.

 

 

[jetjr]

All simple until something goes wrong and your arguing with someones insurance company not the reasonable crowd or the pilot

 

Also Id suggest talking to council, who owns most airfields mentioned, what their take on it is.

 

Reckon at least they would have issues camping air side

 

Why not hold something in the days before or after larger airshow.....like AirVenture?

 

Disgruntled people can symbolically boycott the big event......bet they dont.

 

 

[farri]

As I see it, a discussion here probably doesn`t constitute an invitation to anyone, to participate in a fly-in, but even if that is correct and everyone simply turns up on the given day at a given place, apart from any regulation applying to the event, there will be numerous liability issues...Who is prepared to take responsibility?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Possum1]

Here is the same old argument about the definitions of "general" and "specific" which makes CAR 206 such a thrilling read! My reading of the definition of Fly-in in the Air Display Administration and Procedure Manual, Appendix F(4) "...A gathering of aircraft at an event or competition where the general public have been specifically invited to the event..." means just that. Well, don't specifically advertise to the general public or invite them.

 

Do what Downunder suggests, "I'm all for a "flyers" flyin. The public not excluded but they can take it or leave it.... A flyin made for aviation enthusiasts, pilots, aircraft owners and the like."

 

Mentioning/advertising a breakfast or BBQ fly-in on this site or the Aviation Trader or a notice on an airfield/club's noticeboard is hardly specifically inviting the general public but is incidentally attracting them if they happen to be interested in aviation and passing by the notice.

 

Ever noticed how many newsagents stock the Aviation Trader, let alone have on display more than 2-3 copies? Hardly a specific targeting of the general public.

 

Just because some notice of a fly-in could randomly be viewed by a member of the general public does not mean one is specifically targeting them.