Double fatal (GA) near Darwin 23/10/17

[ben87r]

Yes, all have been completed now or removed from ops. Was a lot of work completed on the horizontal stabs when they were done, but I’ve not flown them for a few years now so I’m unsure of what has been required to keep them compliant.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

they stopped making 210s in 1986, so at least 41 years old

 

 

[ben87r]

As they did with plus or minus a few years 310 402 404 421 414 441 and most BE58 are older than that as well. Even Oz caravans aren’t generally young but all operate safely.

 

 

[facthunter]

Generally hours flown are the deciding factor (Fatigue.) not years of age, unless salty environment etc applies. The required inspections relate to degradation/ use times. ALL aircraft need airframe inspections. nev

 

 

[Downunder]

I don't think it is right to speculate individual blame but see no probs with talking about the aircraft itself and what happened.

 

I believe in an individuals right to speak/write/post. Who am I to say you can or cannot do that?

 

I DO believe in personal freedoms, whether I agree with what is being said or not.

 

If I disagree with the drift of a thread, I simply don't go back to it. Best for everyone involved.

 

 

[Guest jabiru]

The C210 was made in

 

Year of Manufacture: 1974.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I can understand the professionals wanting to wait the months before the due process of preliminary report and the years before the final report. I have full confidence in ATSB, and ATSB have the task of producing a definitive report (and I note it's not ATSB wanting to stop speculation), but that process is not much good to us for the here and now, and in some cases, a series of fatalities can occur before the official release of the first report. I don't think anyone thinks they are posting the cause of the event, and it's the side discussions the subject prompts, that have proven to be of most benefit to future generations.

 

It might seem harsh, but if you are going to seriously take a look at an accident, you have to forget about the personalities involved. Now and again the great friend and life of the party, caused the problem

 

I can only remember two family members who came on to this site, one prompted by a member, who expressed concerns which were quickly allayed by several people explaining to her what we were trying to do and where we were heading, and she was most appreciative, and the other who was thankful to us for confirming her own thoughts.

 

There are quite a few reasons other than corrosion/SIDS relationship that can cause wings to come off a 210. It varies from the C206 in that it doesn't have wing struts, and the leads some people to conclusions, but the two aircraft are built for different applications, the C206 being more of a truck vs a 210 car.

 

Handling a rain shower in a 210 is a quite a lot different than it is in a Drifter, with a lot less options.

 

Its cruise speed is around 200% faster than a Drifter, 106% faster than 80 kt cruise, and around 65% faster than a Jab.

 

In that far shorter time, to ensure correct wing loading, you have to make decisions on Prop Pitch, and Gear as well as flaps.

 

So the rain shower could be a factor.

 

Also, previous pilots may have stressed the airframe; I saw a 172 looping on one occasion, so the first time there was any rough weather, the previous damage could have kicked in.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

they stopped making 210s in 1986, so at least 41 years old

31?

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Condolences to the families and those affected.

 

I personally don't have an issue with discussion on possible/probable causes.. they help drive out potential issues I am not too familiar with and incorporate habits that increase my safety (learn from others, but I do sometimes verify with an examiner before). It also helps reinforce or bring to the fore those things that were learned many years ago but have somehow been cast to the deeper annals of the grey matter and not regularly thought of/practised.

 

However, I would think jumping to any conclusions, no matter how obvious they may seem, is dangerous until the publication of the report by the ATSB. But even then, sometimes it doesn't really explain things. For example, one thing we all know is that if we fly into IMC (as VFR pilots), our life expectancy materially diminishes quite rapidly. Yet it still happens with alarming frequency; usually minor breaches, but all too often, major breaches that result in the usually inevitable. In fact, yours truly fortunately (from my perspective, anyway) had the presence of mind to turn around while there was still some visibility but still sandwiched in between two thick layers of stratus cloud and options rapidly diminishing. What made me do it in the first place, knowing full well the likely consequences and after many times previously abandoning plans with less marginal forecasts? Combination of frustration for not being able to fly for quite some time, "needing" to get to where I was going and a wing-and-a-prayer that the marginal forecast was overly pessimistic (in the UK? yeah, right!). If I had of met my maker on that flight that AAIB report undoubtedly would have read a non-IFR qualified pilot continuing to fly into IMC, followed by loss of visual cues leading to spatial disorientation resulting in a graveyard spin/spiral dive, but it still doesn't explain why..

 

In this sad tragedy, I am not sure what likely or probable cause there is. Could be anything from sudden pilot incapacitation to a wing break up in flight or anything in between. Regardless, the aviation community has suffered another loss and we should be respectful to those affected and reflect as well, as what we can constructively discuss should help us in being safer.

 

Safe flying!

 

 

[facthunter]

When something real actually happens it promotes speculation but does provide opportunity to run across a lot of possibilities. that can have some very positive aspects. What isn't fair to some and perhaps not helpful is to prematurely lay the blame on pilot error (when that happens). That concept isn't helpful and in the past has hindered in depth investigation of WHY the Accident happened which is the main justification of the considerable expense of investigating these matters, helping to prevent similar events happening in the future. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

I’m glad it’s so easy for (edited..Please watch language, abuse etc in posts...mod)

to say get over it, but for the record there are two families that are now going to be spending a lifetime trying to “get over it”. But hey, as long as you guys can have fun pretending you know everything it’s all good right?

I've been there myself...loosing a family member. You never get over it. Discussion is what pilots do. It is what they did at the wake and the funeral and still do to this day. Get over it.

 

 

[winsor68]

Maybe your missing the point.... it was literally only a few hours ago two really decent people died, maybe the speculation doesn’t need to start right now especially while there is zero factual information around and people are trying to live with the knowledge that friends are now gone.

And I think maybe you are in shock. Did you know the pilot? Take care.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No Cookies | NT News

 

Hmmmmmmm...........

 

 

[red750]

There are two news reports on the home page which state that the flight was carrying the body of a road accident victim. There is a suggestion that the coffin may not have been adequately secured, as it was found separate from the two pilots, who have been named.

 

 

[winsor68]

Check out this blog. It tells me all I need to know to draw a fairly certain conclusion.

 

Mike's Flying: January 2009

 

 

 

 

[winsor68]

"To load the coffin you have to remove the door of the C210. Quite an easy task, although a little bit fiddly. However, once you know what to do its easy. The coffin was quite heavy and took 4 or 5 of us to get it in there. To load the coffin we must remove all the seats (except the pilots) and fold the back seats down. We then put a milk crate on the floor where the front passenger seat usually is, and the coffin sits quite nicely down the length of the fuselage..."

 

 

[Happyflyer]

"To load the coffin you have to remove the door of the C210. Quite an easy task, although a little bit fiddly. However, once you know what to do its easy. The coffin was quite heavy and took 4 or 5 of us to get it in there. To load the coffin we must remove all the seats (except the pilots) and fold the back seats down. We then put a milk crate on the floor where the front passenger seat usually is, and the coffin sits quite nicely down the length of the fuselage..."

If this is correct, where could a second person sit?

 

 

[ben87r]

There isn’t enough information available to speculate with this one. The C21

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

"To load the coffin you have to remove the door of the C210. Quite an easy task, although a little bit fiddly. However, once you know what to do its easy. The coffin was quite heavy and took 4 or 5 of us to get it in there. To load the coffin we must remove all the seats (except the pilots) and fold the back seats down. We then put a milk crate on the floor where the front passenger seat usually is, and the coffin sits quite nicely down the length of the fuselage..."

In my time flying helicopters in Arnhemland most of my duties were to do with ceremonial events and/or hunting/collecting croc eggs and the like. A fair percentage of the ceremonial side had to do with the funerals of celebrated elders and in that time I was involved with receiving around twenty coffins flown from the coroner in Darwin into Gove/Nhulunbuy in C210s and C206s. They didn't have to remove the co-pilot seat on any occasion that I recall.

 

The coffin shown in the article linked above is uncommon, I've never seen one like that up there. The coffins up there were generally made as small as possible to fit the body because each funeral ceremony lasts for weeks and it's usually quite hot up there, so once received into the community the coffin is placed into an aluminium circular duct contraption which has a small aircon unit in it, recirculating cold air - a small enough unit to be run by a portable generator of only about 2KVA I would think, to keep everything 'fresh'.

 

I attended several of the funerals on Elcho Island (where this one was bound) and what I describe above is typical there also ... so my two bob's worth is - ignore the suggestion of the coffin not having been properly secured or taking up pilot seat positions or the like.

 

I'm not too surprised that after a wing apparently separated that the coffin wasn't found in the fuselage. It would most likely have been secured to four points by a cargo net which would have correctly satisfied the cargo securing requirement. If a wing separated it would reasonably be assumed that one wing separated first, since the 210 doesn't have a one-piece wing, each is attached separately, so if both have eventually separated there would likely have been a brief period of 'sycamore leaf' gyration before the second wing's separation which would very likely generate G forces sufficient to tear away cargo restraint points or the net itself break.

 

There'll be a lot more to this event than meets the eye at this stage, I would suggest ...

 

 

[davidc95]

I won't speculate on the cause of the crash but I will say that I went to school with one of the pilots of the ill-fated aircraft and shared a few mutual friends with him. He had a reputation as an enthusiastic and charismatic individual with a good aptitude for flying.

 

The local community has been quite shaken by this accident and its hit quite close to home for me as well. I hope the ATSB can bring us some closure.

 

 

[davebutler]

I can understand the professionals wanting to wait the months before the due process of preliminary report and the years before the final report. I have full confidence in ATSB, and ATSB have the task of producing a definitive report (and I note it's not ATSB wanting to stop speculation), but that process is not much good to us for the here and now, and in some cases, a series of fatalities can occur before the official release of the first report. I don't think anyone thinks they are posting the cause of the event, and it's the side discussions the subject prompts, that have proven to be of most benefit to future generations.It might seem harsh, but if you are going to seriously take a look at an accident, you have to forget about the personalities involved. Now and again the great friend and life of the party, caused the problem

 

I can only remember two family members who came on to this site, one prompted by a member, who expressed concerns which were quickly allayed by several people explaining to her what we were trying to do and where we were heading, and she was most appreciative, and the other who was thankful to us for confirming her own thoughts.

 

There are quite a few reasons other than corrosion/SIDS relationship that can cause wings to come off a 210. It varies from the C206 in that it doesn't have wing struts, and the leads some people to conclusions, but the two aircraft are built for different applications, the C206 being more of a truck vs a 210 car.

 

Handling a rain shower in a 210 is a quite a lot different than it is in a Drifter, with a lot less options.

 

Its cruise speed is around 200% faster than a Drifter, 106% faster than 80 kt cruise, and around 65% faster than a Jab.

 

In that far shorter time, to ensure correct wing loading, you have to make decisions on Prop Pitch, and Gear as well as flaps.

 

So the rain shower could be a factor.

 

Also, previous pilots may have stressed the airframe; I saw a 172 looping on one occasion, so the first time there was any rough weather, the previous damage could have kicked in.

Thanks turboplanner, I think this where Chris SS is going. Why have this forum if we cannot discuss, debate & learn. If there is something to learn from this I would certainly want to learn sooner rather than later.

 

I also understand that for most this would still be rather raw especially for family & friends but the idea of this forum is to spread knowledge so that others do not make the same mistake if indeed a mistake has been made.

 

Not to put blame on those that cannot defend themselves.

 

Lastley my condolences to the family & friends we have all lost fellow aviators.

 

 

[bull]

If this is correct, where could a second person sit?

In the back

 

 

[DingerPPC]

Having travelled Gunn Point road quite a bit , its a wide dirt road So something has seriously gone amiss to prevent landing on it or was it dark at the time ?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

smoke in the cockpit?

 

 

[Teckair]

Having travelled Gunn Point road quite a bit , its a wide dirt road So something has seriously gone amiss to prevent landing on it or was it dark at the time ?

How could they land after the wing came off?