Close call at camden!!!

[motzartmerv]

Hi guys..i want some feedback on an incident i had today while flying at camden...I don't know who was in the wrong (it was probably me ..it ususally is)..

 

I was returning to the airfield via the mayfield inbound lane at 1800 (500 above curcuit height)..There was plenty of traffic in the cct..2 cessna 172's a citabria another jabiru a piper seneca and a helicopter..There was also gliders operating on the eastern side and a couple were landing on the grass strip..

 

I overflew the strip at 1800 becasue i didnt want to track all the way to the north and enter the curcuit early dwonwind with all that traffic..Camden officially doesnt have a deadside becasue of the glider and grass strips but i was taught to decend on the deadside and keep it tight to the main runway 06/24...i gave my call over head the field and started my decent and turn..while i was in my turn i gave another call to let them know where i was..just then the piper called "going around"I had my back to it so i couldn't see it , but continued my turn and started to track crosswind towards the strip at cct height..while i was doing that the situation slowly dawned on me that that seneca may be very high for its position and i scanned for it but couldnt see it..all i saw was a shadow tracking next to the strip in my dirrection..i quickly realised that we were on an intercept course with noonly our height seperating us..i made a steep turn to the right to track upwind and was almost directly overhead the field..just then the seneca roared past me in a very nose high attitude and only about 40 meters away..so close i could hear its engines...i was midfield and at cct height...how could it be so high so quickly..it must have gone around very early...to tell you the truth, the only reason i knew it was the seneca that had called going around was becasue i recognised the female pilots voice as being in the seneca from her turning base call...

 

I was incredibly shaken by this 'near miss'....i thought i done evryhting right...right place at the right time...i spose i could have made more of an effort to 'See' the seneca earlier...but i really didnt expect it to be that high so soon...

 

can anyone tell me what i did wrong..and please don't hold back..i told my cfi (briefly) when i landed but he was busy in the simulator with a student...he just raised his eyes and whistled....grrrlll...i shudder to think what may have happend if it were cloudy and no shadows..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

In the avionics sales business are we Motza ?

 

HPD

 

 

[motzartmerv]

ummm..no...whys that??

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Mate I don't know but it is good you are here with us. Spotting a sign such as a shadow and the sense that 'something was up' may have saved you and the others onboard the Seneca. They may have called 'going around' high for some reason they were not happy with the approach. Not sure. Should not have been climbing like a homesick angel today. It was hot. Not sure of the climb rate of those things 1-up. Just try and keep a look out (when possible) of people on all stages of circuits when they are making their calls (bearing in mind some don't). Well done on the 'sixth sense' of yours ;)

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

ummm..no...whys that??

Oh... just checking

 

HPD

 

 

[motzartmerv]

HPD..im intrigued mate...what made u ask??

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

HPD..im intrigued mate...what made u ask??

Motza, there seems to be a lot of near miss' reported lately - in my 20 odd years of Ultralight and spam can flying I have rarely heard of it... strange.

 

From what I recall, there has only been one mid air fatality in Ultralights - thats about .05% of total fatalities (half of one percent)

 

Now, when we have Billion dollar ADSB contracts floating around, we suddenly get a flurry of mid air incidents reported.

 

I believe the biggest life saver for Ultralight pilots would be to wear a helmet - probably well over 25%. I put a helmet related post in this Forum not long ago and got a limited response - fair enuf, people are intitled to take the risks they want to.

 

So what I see is a limited interest in a 25% fatality reduction.....and a huge volume of posts to do with a one half percent fatalitie risk.

 

Motza, please foregive me if I am a bit sceptical of any current 'I nearly had a mid air' claim.

 

Many Ultralight pilots fly on a shoe string budgett. A $1,500 (and fitting and maintenance costs) anti collision device seems a small amount of money to the $120'000 Tecnam and simular owners - it is in fact a lot of money to many RAAus pilots.

 

(Please note - ADSB units may be well over $15,000 + fitting + maintenance)

 

HPD

 

 

[motzartmerv]

HPD..Mate, seems uve got an axe to grind..Im not gunna play polatics with you or anyone else..My post was about a serious near incident i had today with my daughter in the plane..i posted hoping to get some feedback as to what may have went wrong as i don't have "20" years experiance..i only got my licence a few months ago so seems asking ppl such as yourself who do have lots of airtime what i may have done to cause the near miss..but more importantly, what i may have done to avoid it..i htought thats what these forums were for...and for you to say that i have some sort of political agenda is just downright insulting..i dont give a toss about adsb or any other future so called improvements mate..i hire aircaft to fly...i can't afford to own one anyway..with or without anticollision devices...

 

Why is it so difficult for you to believe that an incident like this can occur in a cct with 7 aircraft in it??...I was shaking like a leaf when we landed and you can quote percentages at me all you like..you didnt hear that noise wizz past ur window thisafternoon and see my daughters face when she realised how close we came..I don't know where you have done this '20' years of flying, but i bet it wasnt in a gaap aerodriome full of aircraft, otherwise mabye you'd be a bit more sympathetic and offer some help rather then ranting on about political BS..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Motza, I,ve flown Yak 52s out of Camden.

 

I'm wondering what you hope to achieve with your post Motza, it seems to me the twin seen you, and avioded you - perhaps you need to look out side a bit more.

 

Motza, if you are concerned about being able to afford to fly into the future, it would probably pay to have a close look at the ADSB proposal. Unforetunatly GA went down the 'too expensive to fly' path over 20 years ago - thats how we got the AUF/ RAAus. We seem to be repeating the too expensive to fly bit again.

 

HPD

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

At the end of the day I don't give a flying F:censored: how much experience people have. Mr Bertram and recently Mr Col Pay?? Hrs, experience whatever the sh:censored: you want to call it will never ever save you or your donkey from some pilots lack of airmanship or even your own doing accident waiting to happen. I am not saying that todays incident was lack of airmanship on either parties behalf but accidents can and will happen to even the most professional of pilots with 1000's of hrs. Anyone that thinks they are immune is an accident waiting to happen. I am not taking any sides here as forums are all about just what is going on here and that is discussion. We are not here to make enemies and that is most certainly not Ians view. Ians view is to make it safe or better for each and every one of us through sharing experiences/thoughts. Mate, I hope you and your daughter are ok. Life is precious and it was a traumatic experience but I am sure most of us had them and I hope it did not scare you off flying all together.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What i hoped to achieve HPD was was for someone to tell me what i did wrong... I was looking out for it...i was desperate to get a visual on it..the seneca did not see me, unless climbing out on the same course is your idea of avoiding someone...I would like to know what you hope to achieve by casting doubt on my reason's for posting a ligitimate question..

 

We in the RAA owe alot to ppl such as yourself that pioneerd our sport b4 it was 'accepted' by the powers that be, and i can understand your bitterness towards the beurictats that are trying to impose this costly burden on us...but mate, even though i have a licence i am still very much a student and ill get advice from whoever will offer it ..especially when it comes to situations like this..the seneca was obviously well within its rights to go around as i was well within my rights to overfly the strip..how duzz the give way rule work in this situation??

 

ps..How can we stop these ADSB's?? What is the rationale behind them if as you say these incidents are so rare??

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Play nice everyone and help keep this a friendly place to be!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx darren..and thanx for the earlier response too..im sorry if i seemed a bit miffed...i just was blown away by being accused of having some agenda..As for being scared out of flying, that happend once already 4 years ago, i wont let it happen again...My instructor at the time, a guy who had multi thousnads of hrs, crashed and died with his son in the plane who also died..read my article "dreams" in november issue of the RAA mag..(not the one "dreams do come true") explains how hard it was for me to go flying again..

 

anyway thankyou again...

 

 

[Flyer]

Hi Motza

 

the only problem I see is that there is no dead side to let down on. Therefore you are letting down "on top" of other traffic potentially giving you a conflict as you had.

 

My suggestion is to let down to circuit height outside the circuit area and join on a 45 degree downwind for the circuit.

 

We have the same issues at tooradin. No dead side I mean not running into each other....:)

 

Your superior airmanship and common sense seems to have saved you from a distaster...well done..;);)

 

My 2 bobs worth

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Hi Motza,

 

I'm glad that you and your daughter are OK. This is pretty confronting for a number of reasons: you had a close call, that's enough in itself. Also, like all good pilots you are questioning what you did to contribute to this.

 

I'm not going to answer your question. I strongly urge you to make an appointment soon to talk to your instructor. Walk through this with him or her and work out what you did right and what you could do better. Then go and do a short dual session with your instructor to cement the learning and to "get back on the horse".

 

Hang in there and let us know what your instructor thinks.

 

Kind regards

 

Mike

 

 

[WestCoast]

Motza.....as I am sure we all are, I am glad that you and your passenger are OK although more than a little shaken by the experience......I know I would be.

 

Also I am pleased that you had the confidence to share this incident with the rest of us on this forum as regardless of how much experience any of us might have in aviation, recreationally or professionally, you never stop learning.

 

Mike's (Pelorus32) advice is sound......seek out your instructor and discuss the incident in detail with him.

 

As for the rest of us, I can only echo what BrentC said.....and that is to keep it friendly and remain objective as we don't want to discourage people from sharing their experiences for fear of retribution or ridicule.

 

Regards

 

Dave

 

 

[kfowler]

thank you for your post on the above incident as a new pilot it is good to read this that will help me to stay a live. we have a small aero club with 10 students most of your flying is in a single plane circuit as i have a plane now i will be coming and going from the circuit to give them some insight to other traffic. i would be talking to your instructor i did read your other post and well done on taking the last steep keep up the good work live to fly fly to live

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thankyou all so much for your concerns..I will be seeing my instructor on monday and discussing the incident at length..On reflection i think that overflying such a busy cct was probably not the best thing to do..the rational behind doing that was that all the aircraft in the cct where dojng quite different speeds and cct sizes and i wanted to get a 'fix' on the ones turning downwind b4 i commited to entering at cct height..obviously this wasn't the best descision..Its the old murpheys law..the seneca went aroiund right at the worst possible time for me, surely any o f the other aircraft going around at that time wouldn't have casued such a problem..But it was also murpheys law that saved me to as i heard the 'chick' pilot on downwind and asscociated that voice with the seneca which a few moments later helped me realise it was the fast twin which was climbing towards me..

 

I do appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice and i hope this story sticks in some students minds when approaching a busy airfield..

 

As for keeping it friendly....I thought i was quite friendly..considering the rate at which my blood was boiling over certain comments..

 

 

[Guest Wayne]

Motza,

 

One thing you did was to let us new students know of your incident and give us the chance to think about it. I fly at a small strip and dont have heaps of traffic around but you have made me stop and think. so thanks for sharing your incident. I read your article in RAA Mag. Well done on getting into the air again, your story was part of what made me decide to fly again after many years of just watching from the ground. Well done and good luck.

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

motza, first let me congratulate you for sharing your experience. When people do that we all get to learn. There's a rule of thumb in risk management that says there are 6000 near misses preceding every accident. Learn from those 6000 and you can save a life. So well done.

 

As for the circuit incident, Mikes advice to speak to your instructor or chief pilot is essential.

 

But FWIW I think I know where you went wrong. With the procedure you described you would need to maintain 1800 until joining crosswind, ie after crossing the runway outbound. That would keep you 500 above anyone going around. I think you said you commenced descent on the dead side. Thats what put you at the same alt the Seneca was entitled to fly on final/upwind during a go around.

 

I've sent you a PM about the Seneca.

 

Mal

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx flyer and cheers for the pm..i will do that..I was taught to decend on the dead side and cross the strip at cct height and never to let down on the active side?? I hope this is right becasue it forms the fundemental coarse of action when overflying and joining a cct?? surely descending on the live side would cause many more problems...i think i kept the descending turn too tight to ther strip so that i was still practiacally turning when i was nearly over the strip thereby eliminating my view of acft on takeoff leg..

 

cheers again

 

Wayne..thanx for the kind words re the article, im glad you decided to fly again, that was pretty much the goal becasue i know a few guys that love flying but have been scared out of the sky by other incidences..Keep it up mate, and when u do make mistakes don't be scared to ask us this forum or anyone for that matter what u may have done better..its a crucial part of gaining experiance..Good luck and keep it up..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Motza,

 

If you havnt yet seen it, here is the address of an bi-weekly e-publication that I find very informative - www.overtheairwaves.com it is aimed at IFR pilots though a lot of useful info for any pilot.

 

I find it interesting that you think my concerns about ADSB are political - that tells me a lot. I will leave my reply to your ADSB question to the relevent threads.

 

HPD

 

 

[motzartmerv]

HPD..thanx for the link, i will check that out..Whats so strange about calling ur statements re the ADSB political?? it is a "policy' introduced by the ASA and CASA is it not?? My post was about an 'incident'..a post to fellow pilots, none of whom other then yourslef have mentioned ADSB..They have all offered advice and potential courses of action, none of which was to get an anticollision device fitted..Would you prefer me and others not to post incidences like this just in case it raises 'political' questions (only by you by the way)...should we all just keep these incidences to ourselve's in case it gives fuel to the fire..well sorry pal, not this little black duck..

 

and just FYI, i think a device like the ADSB would cause more problems then it it would save..nothing beats 2 eyes mate and to have a device like that would instill a false sence of security in pilots especially those new students who learn in acft fitted with these things, it would remove the responsability to 'look out' from there phsychie..would you agree??or are your objections purely a finacial argument??

 

 

[Mathew Ker]

Maybe you could both 'cool it'

 

Motzartmerv, Thank you for your posts and this experience you have shared. I suspect HPD read into your original post something that probably wasn't there. But with sensitive issues like added more regulations and equipment, especially given the recent extensive threads on ADSB and other regulatory measures, it may be forgiven that a quip regarding whether someone is promoting new avionics be flipped out there.

 

Whatever... perhaps we can all be thankful you're okay and have learned from this experience and maybe both you and HPD can ease off the inflamatory comments which seem to be recycling another issue.

 

Cheers, Mathew

 

 

[facthunter]

What to do?

 

Motza, you are right to bring this incident to our attention. You had a plan, which you flew. You are correct to Descend where no other traffic are expected to be, Descending onto other traffic is a NO NO, as you pointed out. A mid-field crosswind, (as I understand it) is designed to reduce the chance of conflict with other aircraft, as MOST of them cannot reach circuit altitude by that point. (Winched gliders and some STOL planes being a couple of exceptions) The Seneca may have commenced go-around from any point on the approach, for a multitude of reasons. Let's assume that it could have been 500', so in that case, it would easily achieve circuit height by your mid-field crosswind position, and be in a position to collide with you. Quite obviously a couple of pilots didn't know where aircraft in their close proximity were. This is always a bad idea. I'm not singleing out blame here and you would have a high workload keeping track of all traffic. The twin pilot would be very busy as well with handfulls of throttles Pitch levers mixture controls and cowl gills (if fitted) plus radio calls pitch trim changes and gear and flap retraction considerations and only 500' to level-off (perhaps)This is all pretty much head in the cockpit kind of stuff. You'd want to be very on top of it to do all that in a circuit with 4? other aircraft. Most twins do max-power go rounds as a matter of course and clean it up to cover the engine failure case. If the aircraft is light, this is probably overkill for the purpose of standardisation. Just a few thoughts Nev.