Close call at camden!!!

[motzartmerv]

Nev..thanx..yes, i believe the twin went around very early, thats what allerted me to the potential risk, but seeing its shaddow racing towards me was the final peice of the puzz;e that forced me to do the turn..thank god..i can fully understand that the other pilot was very busy and it was my job to remain clear of it..so if a collision occured it would have been my fault..deffinatly..

 

The main reason i posted other then to get advice was to highlight a potential problem in busy cct's even though all pilots where following procedure...the big "learny" for me is to eyeball that plane on upwind, and if i can't see it, i will turn upwind and not cross untill i have a fix on it...this situation will never threaten me again because of what i have learned...i hope ppl reading this will run through the event in there mind so as to never make my mistake..

 

cheers guys..thankyou all..

 

 

[Guest browng]

Motzartmerv, I wasn't there, so I know jack S%#t about what actually happened, but much kudos for discussing it openly here. We all learn from incidents like this, no discussion, no lesson. Who knows, somewhere somewhen, you might just have saved a life.

 

My only comment regarding the incident itself, is that the Camden entry in the ERSA states;

 

"CONTRA CCTS IN OPERATION. THERE IS NO DEAD SIDE WITH CONTRA CCTS"

 

The uppercase and underline are not mine, that is exactly as found in the ERSA. I note there has recently been another discussion in these forums, that to me highlighted significant confusion regarding operation with opposing circuits.

 

 

[facthunter]

Seeing?

 

Motza, the Seneca was in a better position to see you than you to see it. You were above and in front even if to the right. Not much help if you are dead, (and I reckon you went real close). In high-wing aircraft I practice a little technique of just prior to (say a left turn) I make sure that I am not going too fast (below manoevering speed) I press in a fair bit of left rudder and stop the aircraft turning with right aileron. This causes a great skid, and lifts the left wing and you can get a surprisingly good look behind before you turn into the path of another aircraft. Feels awkward, but it works. Nev...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thnx browng and Nev..i will deffinatly try that slip manouver next time...sounds like good advice to me...As to the conra cct's..I checked and you are deffinatly right...so i conclude that the situation erose from a normal procedure being conducted but shouldn't have been at the time with the other runways in use, albeit the confliction was not with acft on the conta strip...so the same thing would have happend regardless of contra strip operations..Im just lucky i didnt conflict with the gliders aswell...but in my defence i was taught that procedure by a number of instructors at YSCN and was told to keep it tight to 06/24 and not overfly the glider strip, which in essence is what caused the problem because i was so close to 06/24 and in a descending turn and didnt avail myself enough time to check the traffic on upwind..I will be discussing this with my chieff on monday at length..obviously the procedures taught need to be modified..All that being said..i should have checked the ersa myself..i have been flying out of there for months now and have certainly looked at the publication for camden without realising the contra cct point...tsk tsk to me..Very dissapointed with myself..

 

I f i had been following the rules this incident wouldn't have occured..No one to blame but me..From now on i will join downwind ona 45 deg..

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I have been thinking this situation of Moz’s through a bit – particularly with reference to the contra circuit issue.

 

I spent most of my working aviation life in a rec flying, contra circuit situation where gliders were usually involved, so I am no stranger to them. Initially I was puzzled by the opening thread. There is actually no problem but then after hundreds of tug pilot flights there was never was – you just fitted in. While the Pawnees were fighter style visibility even the Super Cub and Auster gave adequate visibility if you were working well ahead of the aircraft and putting the machine in a sensible pattern. It was basically a non radio environment as well – you used the Rules of the Air and looked out of the window!

 

I do find however (especially in GA and particularly in Australia) that there is a great fear of contra circuits and perhaps some additional “rules†may be apt – or at least some more “airmanship prudence and understanding†of the basic circuit.

 

When I did the original Operations design work at Watts Bridge airfield I counselled for contra circuits – and was met with a flat refusal! Yet there was no logic to that refusal other than that there was a collision risk on opposing base legs. There is NO collision risk at all if pilots used the extended centre line of their respective runways (we had parallel runways by then) as a “wall†that they would not cross! And particularly as any opposing traffic is head on and in your clear field of view so a collision risk is minimal! If such pilots cannot do anything that simple then what are they likely to do in anything intrinsically complicated where it is impossible for them to see?

 

Because of that we let go begging 14 square miles of airspace 1500’ deep that was hardly ever used. Instead everyone felt very happy with piling into half of one circuit - gliders, gyros, powered parachutes, ultralights of all airspeeds, the whole gamut of GA singles, twins and the occasional military Caribou or Hercules visit along with para drops into one half of the circuit with all the double blind spot and speed problems that go with such a mix. It is the double blind spot that can kill, as has apparently happened very recently!

 

But – given that contra circuits do exist (as in some places they must) then how do you deal with them?

 

Given Moz’s account it looks as if the Senaca pilot made an unwise action. The report he stated was “going around†– NOT “going around for a rejoinâ€Â! The twin pilot should therefore have climbed ahead to circuit height and stayed there giving the 500’ buffer zone between 1000’ agl and the commencement of the 1500’ “dead air†above the circuit (that is still within the 3000’ deep and 3 mile radius of the circuit area).

 

If that pilot had taken that course of action then she would have been dealing only with aircraft at about her level and in front of her. Instead she climbed into dead air above the airfield and apparently invoked the classic double blind spot where Moz was above her roof and she was below his cockpit floor – and she was doing something unexpected.

 

I can fully understand Moz’s discomfort and seeking advice!

 

OK how do you control this situation in a contra circuit? Basically you do it horizontally and make any significant climb or descents out of the circuit area. Let us go through a few basics.

 

If you are the left hand half of the contra then all your turns are made to the left – that is standard circuit procedure. If you are in the right hand side then all your turns are made to the right. That should apply up to 1500’ agl. For the remaining 1500’ vertical of the contra circuit the airspace is truly dead both sides! For example – gliders may want to be above the other circuit and thermaling in the other turn direction to stay up – so it is very much see and be seen!

 

That is no problem but you have to use a “stacked dead sideâ€Â. In other words your dead side is now above your normal circuit instead of the other side! This is easy!

 

Make your initial run in off to one side of “your circuit side†and above 1500’ agl. Orbit if you have to but ensure that you have the current runway identified and as much of other circuit traffic seen as is possible.

 

When satisfied then proceed UPWIND (meaning duty runway upwind) for far enough that you can then confidently descend to circuit height without a collision risk. Once down to circuit height then rejoin on an extended down wind leg and just get on with it!

 

All the traffic is now at, or about, your level and in your clear view – except following faster traffic and for them I am afraid that you are just going to have to trust their lookout because there is not much else that you can do. The current staggered circuit heights for different speed aircraft do help here a great deal because they horizontally resolve a lot of the vertical descent double blind spot situation when people are acting stupidly and climbing or descending on the downwind leg for example.

 

Those are just my views – they are open to debate which is why I posted them.

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Togcentral..thankyou for your input, the seneca pilot did only climb to cct height..she leveled out shortly after passing me..i was also at cct height crossing midfield..i turned to close to the active runway so that i was still turning when very close to the strip, thats why i couldnt see her, my left wing being down..This is why its a confusing situation..becasue we were both doing the propper thing..albeit i turned to close to the strip..

 

Thankyou for the detailed explination regarding contra ccts..i will be showing this thread to my chieff on monday..something needs to change in the procedures taught at least by the school i fly with..

 

 

[Yenn]

As I see it Motza dis nothing wrong. The correct method of entry is a 45 deg onto downwind from inside the circuit, and as I read it that is what he die. The US way is a 45 deg join to the outside of the downwind leg and if he had done that there would have been no conflict.

 

With our joining requirements it is obvious that to climb through circuit height over the runway is going to put you at risk of hitting a joining aircraft..The comment that the Seneca should have had Motza in sight may not be correct as the nose could have been high, obscuring forward vision. That brings us back to a recent post where someone said you should climb and descend using light turns to clear the nose.

 

The great thing about this post is that it has opened all our eyes, and Motzmartmerv is probably only with us because of his good airmanship.

 

I just hope I can uphold the same standards.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

If i have learned 1 thing from this misshap, its to get a visual on that accft...if no visual is made, then bug out...turn upwind..mabye radio and ask for a position...if i had continued to cross the strip im pretty sure i wouldn't be here today..

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

OK – let is take this discussion a little further then! I stress that I am not chucking bricks at anybody but let us work on the information given.

 

In the light of what Moz has now said, and clarified the issue a little more – I still feel that the Seneca pilot was in error.

 

A mid downwind rejoin is about the safest thing you can do because it is nearly impossible for an aircraft taking off to climb into you as you cross the active runway. Therefore, on a go-around, the twin pilot should have accepted that and flown a sensible height climb out and not got to a position where she was already at circuit height half way down the runway and in potential conflict with other traffic complying with standard procedure, but maybe not able to see her and certainly not expecting to meet anyone at that height in that position?

 

On the other hand Moz had to be wrong as well. He states that he was in the overhead at 1500’ for a rejoin (or that is what I read into the situation) But he was in conflict at circuit height approaching crossing the runway? By definition he had to have let down on the live side of the contra circuit – and that is a no-no as he was apparently not flying a helicopter. So maybe the twin pilot was not expecting to see him for that reason?

 

We cannot have it both ways at contra circuit airfields! There has to be a concrete wall down the middle of the airfield extending to 1500’ and you stay your side of the wall – all the time below that height!

 

So you have to get close to have a look (particularly if non radio) and then where do you let down?

 

There are only two choices that I can easily see. You either drive out well clear to the live side of “your†circuit half, let down there and rejoin the downwind leg midway with everything in front of you at your height – or – you drive well upwind clear of any normal cross wind legs and let down there and then do a long downwind – again with anyone else at about your height in front of you!

 

The key point is, in any circuit situation but especially contra circuits, to carefully plan where your let down is so that you do have potential conflicting traffic in front of you where you can see them!

 

 

[Guest disperse]

where do you find all the so called right of way rules ..... for circuits and general flying ??

 

and I know that just because you have right of way doesn't mean it's the right way !!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Togscentral..thanx for elaberating more...however i think you missread my original post...i overflew ay 1800 indicated (1500 agl) untill i was on the deadside and commenced my descent and turn..i was at curcuit height when i was about to cross the strip, but...i was still in a slight turn not having yet squared up to the strip...its at that time close to the strip and still slightly banked that i saw the shaddow..I would never let down on the live side..to get down to cct height without overflying the other strips at camden you really need to get the power off and nose right over to loosed the height all while turning back towards the strip...its a bit of a thing..passengers i have taken up at yscn have said they really didnt like the steepness of the manouver..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Togscentral..i have just realised what your last post said...and yes, i let down not on the live side of the contra cct but more overhead the contra strip...its as good as can be done at camden..thats what i was taught anyway...but like i said b4..i will be taking the issue up with my chieff ...

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Hmmm! Camden sounds an interesting place! The airspace between those two strips must get quite exciting at times!

 

Sorry if I misled - just semantics I suppose. In my understanding there is NO dead side at a contra airfield that you can let down into because the dead side for one direction is the live side for the other.

 

Hence my comments that you have to be creative with the airspace above the regular circuit height but really should be well clear of either circuit before letting down.

 

I will be interested to hear what your instructors make of the situation.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, its an interesting place alright..theres a parralel grass glider strip, actually 2 glider strips 10/28 and 06/24 and a light aircraft grass strip 10/28 and the main runway 06/24..it gets very interesting when all 3 are active as some schools at camden love useing the grass..they will even put up with a crosswind to use it...i am glad for the experiance gained by learning in this busy environment..when i first started flying it was from a quiet central qld strip and canonly remeber a couple of occsions when there was another accft anywhere near the place..i couldn't imagine learning there and then flying into a place like camden...scary scary...anyway...thanx again for ur input, and thanx to all who have added there words of wisdom to this thread..ur input is priceless..

 

;););)

 

 

[Guest Flyer40]

Thats right motza. For all the discussion about concrete walls, live side/dead side etc, what actually occurs at Camden is a bit different. Some might get the impression from ERSA that 10/28 is a secondary runway, but it isn't. A lot of aircraft based at Camden prefer 10/28 and it gets a lot of use, even while ops are occurring on both 06's. A further source of complication is that glider 06/24 is not parallel to 06/24, the extended centre lines converge to the west. So the turn to final on 06 is a potential collision zone.

 

During CTAF you can have three non-parallel circuits at Camden, with a variety of circuit entry and exists occurring.

 

It sounds complex, but generally there is method to the madness and it works well even with a large proportion of the aircraft being flown by students.

 

I would say the most significant hazard at Camden is that the 28 threshold is not visible from the 24 threshold. Same goes for 10 and glider 06.

 

motza I am very interested to know what your chief has to say about it. I really believe you should not descend on the dead side, but should cross the runway 500 above circuit alt then descend on mid-field cross wind. Doing it this way you should not be at risk of descending onto traffic in the circuit because they are doing their cross wind at a different location.

 

Mal

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mal..yes ..that sounds like good advice to me, although that doen't leave a bloke much time to spot the traffic turning downwind as your nose is down and accft would be approaching from the right...but if evryones being polite and useing the radio propperly there shouldn't be nuch of a problem...i think from now on i will descend after calling inbound and enter on a 45 from the outside of the cct..

 

The problem you stated about the threshold's of 24 and 28 is a bit more of a worry..especially when one aircraft doesn't give a lining up or rolling call...but thats another story..lets just say i sorted that out after landing personlly..hehe..

 

 

[Admin]

I am really encouraged by seeing people not only posting their incidences here for us to all learn from but also what seems like forum members realising the objectives and culture of these forums i.e. the friendliness that is paramount here - to see members supporting each other in terms of moderation is great to see - a big thanks

 

Motz - a lesson that you learnt which has helped us all to know about and discuss has been great - well done Mate!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep, its a great forum Ian..The guys on here are quite knowledgeable and all to willing to offer advice and tutalidge..;);)

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Merv,

 

I stick by my original suggestion to go to your instructor but I've become a little intrigued as well. I've never flown at Camden but having just looked at the setup and read the ERSA I'm just going to work this through.

 

Here are my assumptions from what you've said and what the ERSA says. Please correct me if I'm wrong because everything else I say is based on the assumptions:

 

1. You were approaching from Mayfield on a roughly SE course - 138 degrees, say 140 for ease of discussion;
    
    
   
2. The CTAF was in operation;
    
    
   
3. The active (for you) was 06;
    
    
   
4. That means that downwind leg was 240 degrees;
    
    
   
5. You were approaching from the live side;
    
    
   
6. You knew which rwy was the active for you;
    
    
   
7. You know Camden well and therefore are familiar with where the circuit legs are "on the ground"
    
   

 

So my question is why not use the 45 degree entry to mid-downwind? The benefits are as follows:

 

1. You never come close to crossing into someone else's live side;
    
    
   
2. You never cross your active;
    
    
   
3. you enter the circuit area at the same height as all other traffic;
    
    
   
4. It requires only a slight diversion from your inbound track - say an initial change halfway inbound to an inbound track of 90 - 95 degrees to position for;
    
    
   
5. The turn to 195 degrees for your 45 degree entry; and then
    
    
   
6. Turn to 240 degrees for downwind.
    
   

 

All that time you have the chance to monitor the CTAF to get a picture of the traffic, and to eyeball the traffic in the circuit at the level of your horizon - they are at the same height as you and therefore easiest to see.

 

Or have I missed something fundamental here that Camden users will spot instantly?

 

When I read the ERSA and look at the setup in the drawings my alarm bells jangle and I get a strong sense that I never want to be overhead there, I'd do anything to enter the circuit from the outside :)

 

Go for your life guys and girls.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Just to clarify: I mean 45 degree downwind entry from Outside the circuit

 

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hi mike..thanx, yes that would have been a better idea by far...but at the time i was approaching the airfield i heard a lot of traffic, going at different speeds, particularly the twin which was overtaking 2 aircraft on early downwind..and 1 on crosswind i think..so including me that would have made 5 acft on downwind at once..1 of the other piliots was on the radio asking where the twin was and she replied she was doing quite wide ccts to allow for the extra speed and overtaking...it was a last minute descision not to descend down into the caos rather to overfly it all, have a look at what was going on and then find a hole...the hole i chose was to let the twin go past me on upwind to the right of me and then cross and join downwind..becasue she had overtaken 2 accft on downwind..so i knew that none of those accft would conflict with me joining....basically crosswind and early downwind were stacked up when i was at the point of descision..so i opted to stay out of it and observ from above where evryone was fitting in...in hindsight, it wasn't a great descision but its one ive chosen a number of time previously..I don't know, theres something about being at cct height and joining from the outside with all the different sized ccts being conducted scares me abit..i would much prefer to approach traffic from there left and on the same side as the strip becasue thats where visibility for them is best and where there eyes usually are..

 

Conversely, if i join from outside, i may be on the left of 1 acft and on the right of another, and going faster then some and slower then some...Its just something im more comfortable with ...the other strips have never caused me a problem in this situation becasue they are rarely if ever at cct hieght midfeild..

 

From the ersa you can see that the runway 10/28 doesnt run contra ccts..they go the same way as 06/24...its quite crazzy at times.

 

i hope ive been clear, its hard to relate in words what was going through my mind at the time...

 

 

[Mazda]

I operate from Camden but I wasn't there on this day so obviously can't comment on the incident.

 

My thoughts though are that from Mayfield, the best plan would have been to descend to circuit height and join downwind. Remember that you can slow down if required to make sure you slot into the circuit with enough room. Knowing the active circuit direction means that you have no need to over-fly, and at Camden as you say there is no dead side.

 

And yes, be really really vigilant to look out for other traffic and to give enough room for the aircraft in front to land and exit the runway.

 

Yesterday there was a C152 on final (looked like an early solo student as there was an instructor standing in the run up bay) and another aircraft on final right up the Cessna's tail. I loved the tower controller's comment, "Now would be a good time to decide to go around"! The pilot said, "Going around" and the controller said, "Good decision"!

 

 

[Flyer]

Hi MotzaMy suggestion is to let down to circuit height outside the circuit area and join on a 45 degree downwind for the circuit.

Given the fact that there were 5 aircraft in the circuit, you could add an orbit on the 45 degree entry line to clear you from the other aircraft....

 

Just a further though....:)

 

Interested to hear your instructors thoughts as well. I think we all stand to learn something here.;)

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Flyer...yes, the orbit idea did cross my mind...and if there wasn't fast wide traffic i probably would have done it..but i got the heebie jeebies about turning and heading straight back at the fast wide trsaffic, even though it would have only been temporarily...thanx for the tip..

 

Mazda..yea, ive heard and seen some funny things in the cct there when doing some ppl training..ive been into the tower and watched them for an hour or so, and they are funny guys..By the way, anyone who wants to go into the tower at camden the guys there are all to willing to let ya watch and give ya a run down on what goes on in there...its an exellent way to get a real idea of whats happening..Theres more going on in there then ya'd think, and i must say they are incredibly vigilant operators...

 

;);)

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Motza, I would be interested to hear the Seneca drivers side of things - Camden local were they ?

 

HPD