Close call at camden!!!

[motzartmerv]

HPD..im not sure, there's only 2 seneca's at camden, 1 is at my school (the one i fly with) and it was sleeping, and the other is from curtis..i havn't talked to Rob yet to ask if it was his..i will on monday..ill let you know..i am hanging to talk to her myself, at least to find out if she saw me..

 

cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hi guys...i have an updade regarding this incident (near) at camden..I spoke to my instructor about it at length..While camden doesnt have an official dead side most schools will continue to teach the overfly method of joining as it serves as good airmanship on other ctaf strips, which we all use regularly..The idea is to descend close to the strip so as not to interfere with the traffic on the glider strips..and this seems quite feasable when you look at camden from the air...

 

Basically we agreed that the incident was my fault and it came about becasue i turned and descended too close to the active strip 06/24..so close that i was just finishing the turn when i was crossing the strip...if i had turned and descended a little further away i would have been level and at altitude when crossing the strip thereby giving me heaps of visability of the twin on final and then takeoff leg..my wing was down in the turn obscuring my vision..

 

Since this incident i have joined from outside on a 45 deg and will continue to do so..its much better an idea to get the cue and order sorted out b4 actually joining..if this means a few orbits to let fast traffic go by then so be it..

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Don't be too critical on your actions that day. You are here. You learned from the incident too so it's not all lost. Well done.;)

 

 

[PaulN]

You learned from the incident too so it's not all lost. Well done.;)

;) for the forum and for contributions like this one ... we all learn from stuff like this. Thanks Motzartmerv for sharing it and to everyone who contributed.

 

Paul

 

 

[Mazda]

I understand why instructors would teach CTAF procedures at a CTAF, but there seems to be some confusion.

 

If you were joining the circuit at any CTAF where the circuit direction was established (perhaps from another aircraft in the circuit) there is no need to overfly the strip to establish the wind/circuit direction from the windsock. If you are at a CTAF and you know a certain runway is in use, you can descend to circuit altitude and join on downwind if on that side, or fly over and join midfield crosswind at circuit height if you are flying in from the dead side. You could also do a straight in approach.

 

So if there is already traffic flying in the circuit at Camden there is absolutely no need to overfly at height and descend on the dead side, because you would not do that at any CTAF when the circuit direction was known.

 

The big problem at Camden is that it isn't a normal CTAF either. If you read ERSA it clearly states that you must call inbound at one of the normal GAAP approach points and at least three legs of the circuit must be flown. It also says that there is no dead side. Remember people operate from 06/24 and 10/28 at the same time. Descending on the "dead side" of 06 puts you right in the 10 circuit. Plus of course there are the gliders on that side, and they do operate during the week.

 

I flew at CN today and couldn't believe the number of people calling from x miles north or west for overflying the field at 2,000 feet, descending on the "dead side" and joining the circuit. There were gliders airborne!

 

I wonder why instrutors are teaching procedures which contradict the published procedures for the aerodrome?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mazda..thanx for the post...But we have already covered all the points you have raised...I overflew becasue there was too many planes on upwind and downwind and also a couple of hot ones (fast ones) doing wide out ccts...i overflew to establish where they all were and to find a hole in the cct...it wass a very busy day even for yscn...

 

I always call from an inbound reporting point...

 

I called from mayfield whichj doesnt give you much time to descend and sopt the traffic especially the fast movers who can be doing ccts very wide and long..

 

i realise i did the wrongy by overflying but at the time it seemed logical..

 

Im not sure why instructors continue to teach these methods at yscn...

 

 

[Mazda]

I'm not being critical of you! :) I'm just wondering why people are still being taught this! It was still happening today - well after your incident.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Your right mate...no probs, i am critical of myself and thats basically what the post was about.. I fully agree with you about what goes on at camden..its a crazy place sometimes.. I flew there yesterday and the same stuff was going on.. i joined from outside and have evrytime since the incident..It was a bit choppy so i decided to do a few ccts when i gopt back to practise in the xwind and chop, much to my dads dissmay who was with me..lol... it doesn't have to be real bad either to throw the jab around....

 

cheers

 

 

[Yenn]

I have not re read the whole post, but from what I remember the whole incident was caused by a Seminole going around and actually flying at circuit height on runway centre line. Now as far as I can see that is a dangerous procedure because it will be in conflict with joining traffic or other traffic doing a close in downwind.

 

I can see no reason to fly along the runway at circuit height, she should have kept below circuit height and not climbed until past the upwind end of the runway.

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Motza,

 

Was this the same CFI as told you it was ok to take third passenger, minor on lap of adult passenger on an RAA craft?

 

Assuming you have been using the same chief for a while and assuming (s)he reads these posts, or listens to someone who does, (s)he must fear your next visit will show up more ambiguity about their interpretation of rules and regulations.

 

What implications have incidents such as these for us that that take credence in instruction from well experienced instructors?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Mac..yep...one and the same.. I have had a chat to him recently (tuesday) .. The last thing in the world i want is to make any trouble for him.. But i did put forward the point that he is getting on in years.. He is a lovely bloke and has been training pilots for 40 odd years.. But i was trained by GA instructors under him and only had a few training flights with him, but, they all taught the same methods, apart from one of them who had me approaching at 65 and then 60 over the fence in the jab.. then next guy had me at 75 knotss on final and 70 over the fence... apart from that they where all very consitant..

 

I have lately got into the habbit of checking and double checking evrything myself.

 

I worry sometimes, but in the air the guy is absolutly on the ball, i mean he doesn't miss a beat.

 

i really feel for the guy, he just doesnt want retire yet..

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

I am sure that everyone in the RAAus community is very, very, happy that you didn't call up asking for permision to overfly the harbour bridge on the way to Victor 1. <VBG>

 

Graham

 

PS: Well done by you too in not doing it!!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Have no fear.. i check EVRYTHING now.. but class C doesn't need much checking, just stay away..hehe;)

 

 

[Mazda]

That lane down the river is actually for helicopters.

 

In a VH registered aircraft you can ask for clearance that way but don't count on getting it!

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

I think seaplanes get it fairly quickly too...

 

Graham Lea

 

 

[Guest rolfeja]

I have not re read the whole post, but from what I remember the whole incident was caused by a Seminole going around and actually flying at circuit height on runway centre line. Now as far as I can see that is a dangerous procedure because it will be in conflict with joining traffic or other traffic doing a close in downwind.I can see no reason to fly along the runway at circuit height, she should have kept below circuit height and not climbed until past the upwind end of the runway.

 

I agree shouldnt the twin have turned crosswind at 700ft agl if they were going around?

 

 

[timshel]

Hi

 

Sorry to hear about your near miss. I fly regularly with my kids and it would scare the beejeezus out of you, more for their sake, let alone yours. I have a business near camden and eventually I intend to fly my new tecnam from Bairnsdale here in Vic, to Camden, and I am intersted in your advice on Camden genarally and this contra cct business as I have only 40 hrs and no experience with contra cct's. ( I am also taking notes from my CFI's Rec and GA) but your perspective is very relevant to mine it would seem. Also I was kind of under the impression that GAAP aerodromes were out of bounds for Recreational flyers as they are controlled airspace (AIP ENR 1.2), and yet, here you are flying there legally, can you or someone clarify for a newbie/

 

 

[motzartmerv]

G'day tim..Well camden is a very interesting place to say the least.. Its only a control zone on weekends between 9-5.. And even then the tower don't mind us goin in and out of there..Its a good idea to give them a call b4 ya jump in, they will tell ya if its cool or not..But generally there's no problem

 

Now, the contra cct's... Make sure you have the sydney vtc so you can get the imbound reporting points, make your way to one of them, i generally like to come in via mayfield or bringelly to stay out of the gliders way , they tend to hang out on the south eastern side of the strip..Its not as tricky as it looks in the ersa, just remeber that runway 24 is right cct's,..join downwind with a radio call and evrything should be cool.. most guys there are used to the place and are good on the radio etc..

 

The only time it gets tricky is when there's acft doing cct's on the grass strip aswell as the sealed runway, but ya just need to keep a good lookout for them especially in the area's where the cct path intersect ie, early downwind (for 06/24 and final leg.. But don't get to worked up about it, once ya see how it all works its really no problem, and if worst comes to worst jump on the radio and let them know that you are new to the strip and most guys will help you all they can..

 

Let me know when you come up, ill give you my number and talk you through it if you like (easier on the phone then in here)

 

Cheers and good luck with the tecnam:thumb_up:

 

 

[Mazda]

True, it's really not that daunting and a beautiful place with lots of interesting aircraft.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Absolutley.. i was in the cct the other day with a tigermoth and 2 yaks, 1 was a beautifull Yak 50.. its like an airshow evryday there..:thumb_up:

 

 

[IanR]

Absolutley.. i was in the cct the other day with a tigermoth and 2 yaks, 1 was a beautifull Yak 50.. its like an airshow evryday there..:thumb_up:

And don't forget the wonderful formations !!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Exactly.. good point.. gorgeous:thumb_up: