BASIC CLASS 2 - PRIVATE PILOT MEDICAL ANNOUNCED!

[Mike Borgelt]

This is about the most pathetic non reform that CASA could have dreamed up. AOPA and others were stupid enough to hail it as a breakthrough instead of condemning it. It will ensure there is no real medical reform in the next 25 years unlike what has happened in the UK and US.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

This is about the most pathetic non reform that CASA could have dreamed up. AOPA and others were stupid enough to hail it as a breakthrough instead of condemning it. It will ensure there is no real medical reform in the next 25 years unlike what has happened in the UK and US.

Hey this is CASA, and along wth AOPA you expected something positive? ..........from that famous movie...." Tell him he's dreamin" -:)

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Well,...... Maybe not.The ausroads commercial licence standard is tougher than the ausroads private licence standard. That we already know. So already without any extra detail from CASA we know it will be tougher.The next thing is that casa have stated unequivocally that they are going to add extra conditions onto the ausroads standard that they feel applicable to aviation. But as far as I am aware they have not stated anywhere what those additional conditions are.

 

I think we can be absolutely certain they will not be less stringent than the conditions attached to the existing RAMPC.

 

I would think they will be more stringent (knowing CASA ) but even if they are the same then it leaves a more difficult overall medical than the RAMPC.

How can they add more to their prostituted version now. heart bypasses or stents = NO cancer = NO etc etc the RampC is a joke. This basic medical is supposed to be just the Austroads Commercial vehicle medical which allows all of the above conditions...the only rule is that you can "drive on condition" that means every 12 months you need to be signed off by your doctor who has all the info from your specialists that you see. I have a drivers medical for commercial now for a HR licence and it is no drama by the rules. So obviously thats what I use to fly RAA every year when I renew

 

Mark

 

 

[kgwilson]

In the UK they had a pragmatic approach to the medical issue. They have of course top level princples which promote this. See below.

 

The UK CAA's top level principles for GA regulation:

 

• Only regulate directly when necessary and do so proportionately
   
   
   
  
• Deregulate where we can
   
   
   
  
• Delegate where appropriate
   
   
   
  
• Do not gold-plate, and quickly and efficiently remove gold-plating that already exists
   
   
   
  
• Help create a vibrant and dynamic GA sector in the UK.
   
   
   
  

 

 

 

Secondly they used actual evidence to determine the risk of incapacitation from a medical episode.

 

"Over a 10 year period from 2004 – 2013, there were a total of 151 GA fatal accidents of which 20 had possible medical causes. These included factors such as hypoxia, fatigue, dehydration, alcohol and suicide. Of the 20 none could be directly attributed to a medical issue that would have been discovered by the Aviation medical."

 

So they decided to look a the 3rd party impact.

 

"Over a 10 year period from 2004-2013, out of the 151 GA fatal accidents, there were a total of six GA accidents involving third parties on the ground. Only two of these resulted in fatalities and both of these involved third parties involved in aviation activities rather than being uninvolved third parties. There were no fatalities to a third party as a result of serious incapacitation of the pilot."

 

Then they looked at the risk of incapacitation by the pilot during flight.

 

"The focus was on conditions which could result in sudden incapacitation (e.g. heart attack, seizure) where the pilot may be unaware of symptoms at the start of the flight. This is based on an assumption that private pilots do not generally take part in recreational flying if they feel unwell and this is supported by feedback from the consultation."

 

The result was that without a medical the "RISK" increased from 1 to 2 per year & while the absolute risk increased it was still very low. This is borne out by the actual statistics as above.

 

The rest of course is history. No medical required for PPLs up to 5700kg MTOW, self declaration based on an ordinary car licence, once before age of 70 & every 3 years after that.

 

So why could we not adopt the same approach? I believe it is the top level principles of which there is only one, Safety, (Dick Smith is trying to get this changed) coupled with an ingrained conservative culture inside CASA that will not look at reality and actual evidence & needs the existing complexity to maintain its stranglehold & feather it's own nest.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Much of aviation regulation is theatre. It is there to convince politicians and the public that SOMETHING is being done. Doesn't matter whether it is effective or not or whether the industry gets destroyed. The so called self administrating bodies are no better as they depend on CASA for their operations and hence have lost the power to say NO.

 

If some young person nowadays tells me they want to get into any kind of recreational aviation in Australia I tell them they really don't and should find something else interesting to do. Or move to the USA if at all possible.

 

 

[Yenn]

Why USA Mike, surely New Zealand would be more appropriate for an Aussie.

 

 

[Nobody]

Why USA Mike, surely New Zealand would be more appropriate for an Aussie.

Because a lot of the current Australian Aviation Medical mess started under the previous principal medical officer who was also the previously medical officer in NZ. Ask an NZ pilot what they think of their medial regulations. As bad as ours.....http://www.aopa.co.nz/uploaded/file/News/AOPA%20NZ%20Pilot%20Medical%20Certification%20Policy%20May%202017.pdf

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Yep, NZ has an entirely undeserved reputation for having a reasonable set of civil aviation regulations. I was there 2 and a half years ago looking to buy an aircraft to fly around for a couple of summers but found nothing suitable and I was also told that an ordinary PPL medical will set you back $700 to 900 because they require full blood tests etc etc. Their Experimental homebuilt regs are at least as restrictive as ours, maybe more so. The place is also an Air Traffic controller's paradise with controlled airspace (you will need a transponder even in Class D which they have radar for, never mind that ICAO Class D is non radar controlled airspace and controlled airports everywhere a twin turboprop regional airliner goes (most places). Pain in the rear.

 

Navigation is no problem, when you can fly, because the weather sucks. The whole place needs to be towed 600nm north.

 

My wife is a NZ citizen BTW. After 41 years applied for Australian citizenship but so far it has taken 9.5 months and nothing yet. I guess white, heterosexual female sporting shooter with pilot licence who has never been on welfare and has been gainfully employed the whole time is a difficult case.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

As it took her 41 years to apply, perhaps they thought she wasn’t in all that much of a hurry.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Yep, NZ has an entirely undeserved reputation for having a reasonable set of civil aviation regulations. I was there 2 and a half years ago looking to buy an aircraft to fly around for a couple of summers but found nothing suitable and I was also told that an ordinary PPL medical will set you back $700 to 900 because they require full blood tests etc etc. Their Experimental homebuilt regs are at least as restrictive as ours, maybe more so. The place is also an Air Traffic controller's paradise with controlled airspace (you will need a transponder even in Class D which they have radar for, never mind that ICAO Class D is non radar controlled airspace and controlled airports everywhere a twin turboprop regional airliner goes (most places). Pain in the rear.Navigation is no problem, when you can fly, because the weather sucks. The whole place needs to be towed 600nm north.My wife is a NZ citizen BTW. After 41 years applied for Australian citizenship but so far it has taken 9.5 months and nothing yet. I guess white, heterosexual female sporting shooter with pilot licence who has never been on welfare and has been gainfully employed the whole time is a difficult case.

I was under the impression NZ had moved their private pilot medicals to a self certifying system now. Haven’t seen any thing official but have read statements about it on forums. Am I mistaken?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

No need to answer - just looked it up. As of October 2017 the NZ CAA rules say PPL has to have minimum of a Class 2 medical. And recreational licence can have a medical certificate stating they are fit for a class 2,3,4 or 5 drivers licence.

 

When you then go an look up the requirements for the medical. It’s worse than Australia if you are over age 40 for tests but at least it lasts 4 years till age 60 then 2 yearly. Here it’s 2 yearly after age 40

 

Less than age 40 - looks basically the same as Oz. Except Medical lasts 5 years. No requirement for ecg, blood tests.

 

But over 40 - NZ class 2 medical involves blood tests and ecg each time.

 

So it’s some things better and some things worse than Australia class 2 medical.

 

But definitely it is not the same ball park as the USA basic med or the British medical.

 

I suspect the people putting NZ medical in that same boat as Britain &. USA have been confused about classes if pilots licence.

 

 

[kgwilson]

I think that NZCAA are now in cahoots with CASA. When the RPL began in 2005 it was designed for PPL holders who could no longer pass a class 2 medical. It required a self declaration that you were legally able to drive a car, & you could fly anything up to 5700 KGs with 1 passenger but only by day. Now it is a doctors certificate for a heavy rigid transport licence (6 to 18 tons) minimum & the weight limit has been reduced to 2000 KG. The NZ microlight licence requires a self declaration as per RA-Aus but an advanced rating allows access to controlled airspace if the A/C is equipped with a transponder.

 

My last class 2 medical in NZ was in 2005 & at the age of 55 I had to get one every 2 years. There was no blood test but there was an ECG & it cost $65.00 then. When you live in NZ the weather doesn't seem to cause the same problems with flying as it does here. I used to fly in pretty gusty windy conditions & in the rain & never thought much about it because the weather was often like that. Even when training I flew in rainy conditions, dodging showers etc.

 

I married an Australian & was going to apply for citizenship but when I found out the cost was around $6000.00 I gave the idea away. I get a NZ pension (no means test) but no Aus pension as it is means tested. I have all other privileges such as paying tax & a medicare card. The only thing citizenship gives me is the right to vote. I can be kicked out if I become a axe murderer or something but otherwise no problem.

 

I was there 3 weeks ago & visited my old club. The GA scene is still fairly vibrant & they have a steady stream of students. The British training school CTC there is very busy & have 40 odd training aircraft.

 

 

[up-into-the-air]

If you have a look at the progression of the Medical people in Australia [Pooshan Navarthe and the current incumbents] you will see some very strange coincidences.

 

Pooshan Navarthe

 

Improper evidence on medical certificates

 

 

[Jaba-who]

If you have a look at the progression of the Medical people in Australia [Pooshan Navarthe and the current incumbents] you will see some very strange coincidences.Pooshan Navarthe

You’ll have to be more pointed and less cryptic. I read all the links from start to finish and the “coincidences” elude me. What are you referring to.

 

Improper evidence on medical certificates

[Mike Borgelt]

People. There has been NO meaningful medical reform in Australia. Zip, nada, bupkis, zero.

 

I'm corresponding with a person with skin in the game who has done the DAME training course and have a copy of the instructions. NOTHING has changed as to medical standards or proof thereof.

 

Sure your DAME can issue - maybe - if he or she feels like it but can choose to just kick it to CASA AVMED. CASA can still review it if they want and demand anything. The cost of registering might go down from $75 to $65. Big deal. The Basic Class 2 is just a re badged DAMPC with all the same restrictions and exclusions so any one who has ever had any kind of medical problem that came to CASA's attention will be unable to use it. In any case it has some stupid restrictions, ther e more for their own sake than for any sensible reason. No turbines? - WTF does the engine have to do with medical fitness?

 

We have been lied to yet again by our government and its flunkies. Worse, organisations like AOPA are hailing this as "medical reform". Shows how useless they are. A campaign of rejection of this "reform" might have been good but acceptance means this will be the end of meaningful aviation medical reform in Australia for at least 20 years. I have no doubt that at some point CASA will come after glider pilots and RAAus and the GFA and RAAus will meekly roll over and sell out their "members". GFA couldn't even be bothered putting in a submission on the mdecial reform during the consultation period even though they depend on tow pilots. Some of them have already quit because they sold their powered aircraft and thought they might just do a bit of towing but with the medical and AFR it is just too much trouble and expense.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

People. There has been NO meaningful medical reform in Australia. Zip, nada, bupkis, zero.I'm corresponding with a person with skin in the game who has done the DAME training course and have a copy of the instructions. NOTHING has changed as to medical standards or proof thereof.Sure your DAME can issue - maybe - if he or she feels like it but can choose to just kick it to CASA AVMED. CASA can still review it if they want and demand anything. The cost of registering might go down from $75 to $65. Big deal. The Basic Class 2 is just a re badged DAMPC with all the same restrictions and exclusions so any one who has ever had any kind of medical problem that came to CASA's attention will be unable to use it. In any case it has some stupid restrictions, ther e more for their own sake than for any sensible reason. No turbines? - WTF does the engine have to do with medical fitness?

 

We have been lied to yet again by our government and its flunkies. Worse, organisations like AOPA are hailing this as "medical reform". Shows how useless they are. A campaign of rejection of this "reform" might have been good but acceptance means this will be the end of meaningful aviation medical reform in Australia for at least 20 years. I have no doubt that at some point CASA will come after glider pilots and RAAus and the GFA and RAAus will meekly roll over and sell out their "members". GFA couldn't even be bothered putting in a submission on the mdecial reform during the consultation period even though they depend on tow pilots. Some of them have already quit because they sold their powered aircraft and thought they might just do a bit of towing but with the medical and AFR it is just too much trouble and expense.

Yep. You are completely correct.It’s essentially self congratulatory on CASAs part with a few people who don’t understand what little ground has actually been given saying “thanks for moving us a little closer to what is now standard in the USA and Britain.”

 

I frequent an aviation doctors Facebook forum and the general gist is the DAMEs are mixed between those who will not be issuing medicals directly because of medicolegal concerns if someone they say is fit then has a problem and those who feel the requirements are exactly the same as now so any issuance will be in accordance with the strict requirements of casa so anyone with anything other than complete fitness of a healthy teenager will have to be sent back to casa anyway.

 

To think that anyone who can’t get a medical now will somehow be able to get one is completely wrong. All that has changed is the administration required to process the same standards. The likely savings are $10 (provided the DAME or GP doesn’t increase costs to do more tests to cover their own legal position).

 

 

[SSCBD]

For GA guys - In a couple of years I will hit 60 years of age, and have passed MED 2 without any problems so far as I don't need my med one these days - but I am told once you hit 60 its a whole new ball game with tests for a MED2 ? Why?

 

How many on this forum have turned 60 years old AND WHAT is the difference (any extra hoops) and were you knocked back/ why?

 

 

[ave8rr]

I note in the RAAus Board release that there was mention of a change to the Ops Manual with regard to medical declarations?

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

My fear is that CASA can see 300+ a/c & 10,000 Pilots on the horizon just waiting to get theirs hands on us for our own safety & become our administrator, the “Yes Minister” blunts (term of endearment used in the RAAF to describe anyone that’s not a pilot) must see us as a cash cow for more government funding, I hope I’m wrong.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I note in the RAAus Board release that there was mention of a change to the Ops Manual with regard to medical declarations?

And after the ops/tech manual changes we all have total faith in the current mob that it will be in the members interest - NOT!

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Yesterday I read the latest AOPA magazine which had a somewhat mixed-enthusiasm article about the current state of the medical reform by the AOPA chief DAME representative. I emailed him about it and got an interesting response.

 

Essentially among the lack of information that CASA are giving, even he has not been given any information about the detail of the rules relating the the Basic medical.

 

The other interesting thing he said that at present only 25% of DAME have taken up or have expressed any desire to take up the authority to give on the spot passes for medicals for standard class 2 medicals.

 

It seems it’s not an across the board general authority to give the pass. For a DAME to have the authority to give it they have to apply and be granted approval. Otherwise it’s business as usual - send the findings of the medical to AvMed who wil then adjudicate on it as is done now.

 

Most are not going to be part of it predominantly about concerns of litigation should there be an issue after they have said someone is fit if they have an event.

 

I assume same will apply to GPs when the private Basic Class 2 comes out.

 

So once again it will probably be a case of CASA painting a wonderful picture about change while knowing that the status quo will remain.

 

 

[Yenn]

It seems stupid to me for a doctor to be considered capable of doing a medical check, but not capable of doing it correctly, so that CASA have to make the decision with what the doctor has provided.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

It’s actually a bit different.

 

The doctor is expected to have done it correctly.

 

But CASA does not let the doctor actually decide if what they have observed and recorded equates to any ability to understand if it makes them able to fly safely.

 

It’s more like you examine the patient for specific things that CASA has asked you to look for. As you do the examinations you tick the boxes when what you find is normal. At the end of the examination if every box is ticked you pass. The doctor doesn’t actually decide you are fit to fly, he decides if you fit the list defined by CASA.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why the poor takesups then? They are the benchmarks I mentioned on the other thread.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Why the poor takesups then? They are the benchmarks I mentioned on the other thread.

Are you meaning poor take ups of DAMEs wanting to have the authority to give pilots a pass medical.?The suggestion is that its because the DAMEs are reluctant to expose themselves to the medicolegal risk (of being sued by a relative of someone who they say is fit to fly but who has a medical event that kills them. )

 

I don’t understand what you mean by “they are the benchmarks”.