Multicom

[Garfly]

Of course, now we can get help keeping up with Area frequencies using the

 

FIA / FIA NEXT fields on our EFBs

 

(and/or the pinkish Area-freq map insert as on this iPhone OZRWY screenshot)

 

.

 

 

[djpacro]

There was little or no discussion or reported issues that I could see before CASA changed it a while back without consultation which suggests to me that was the optimum at the time so they should simply revert to that.

 

 

[ben87r]

Getting out the map to work out what area frequency is is usually the last thing one remembers. Just because something is done in the calm doesn't mean that it is a good idea when one is desperate.

Really?

 

Apart from being easy and simple it also a requirement..

 

 

[Garfly]

This is how the ENR 1.1 - 48 / 6.1.11 (17 AUG 2017) puts it.

 

 

I suppose what might be added to that 'such as' list is cross-country flights in VFR / Class G which remain within 20nm of any CTAF or other uncontrolled ALA. Which for a lot of the Oz J-curve would be most places.

 

In any case, I suppose Col's point is that one could find oneself making an entire cross-country flight without being required to listen to Area (in fact, required not to - absent a dual watch radio) which, in an emergency (no time to dial in the FIA) would likely have your call for help fall on absent ears.

 

Note to self: Save up for a dual-watch wireless. (And remember to TX on the right one!)

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I think alot of the push for 20NM comes from faster aircraft, IFR, and rpt getting on the CTAF earlier and giving more warning.Something fast "inbound on descent" can be in the circuit frighteningly quick....

I agree. I often hear the FlyDoc, Rex and others making 20 mile calls. If I'm inbound to the same airfield, it gives me time to talk to these pilots and sort out our arrival with theirs. I find that these commercial pilots are more than happy to talk to us bug smashers and find out where we are and how high etc. They travel "frighteningly quick" as Downunder so aptly said, and they can be on top of you before you can spot them coming. Also, this is another reason I have a mode S transponder in my plane. Anything that makes me visible to the high speed traffic is worth the investment, IMO.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

(And remember to TX on the right one!)

Gary, that got me thinking about another drawback to CASA's plan. With this plan, we not only have to keep our situational awareness for frequencies horizontally, but vertically too. So if I'm sloping along at 3,500' heading East and the bumps come up and I want to climb out of them, I now have to remember to switch from 126.7 to Area as I climb through 5,000'?

 

 

[Garfly]

Yeah, Scott, but you do have a dual-watch radio, right?, so I guess that'd help.

 

(Though as you and Col suggest we might now need to triple-watch.)

 

If my sums are right, going to 20 miles from a 10 miles radius, takes the relevant 'watch' area from around 300 sq. miles to 1200 plus sq. miles.

 

Wouldn't leave much space between for Area if we were urged to tune in to a CTAF at that distance - to give, say, the RPT guys confidence that they're talking to all (most?) of the threats out there. Not that I'm saying it's a bad idea. I don't know.

 

The thing is, for me, an upgrade to a new dual radio would cost the same as a new Mode-S transponder.

 

I wonder, if one had to choose, which of the two would be the more pro-safety ... or, anyway, pro-peace-of-mind.

 

(Assuming, of course, a lot of flying around high traffic density areas.)

 

By the way, interesting that your Avatar's reverted to those over-coffee'd rag 'n' tube days.

 

You must be much calmer these days, cruising the skies in your Legendary C182 knock-off. ;-)

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Yeah, Scott, but you do have a dual-watch radio, right?, so I guess that'd help.(Though as you and Col suggest we might now need to triple-watch.)

 

If my sums are right, going to 20 miles from a 10 miles radius, takes the relevant 'watch' area from around 300 sq. miles to 1200 plus sq. miles.

 

Wouldn't leave much space between for Area if we were urged to tune in to a CTAF at that distance - to give, say, the RPT guys confidence that they're talking to all (most?) of the threats out there. Not that I'm saying it's a bad idea. I don't know.

 

The thing is, for me, an upgrade to a new dual radio would cost the same as a new Mode-S transponder.

 

I wonder, if one had to choose, which of the two would be the more pro-safety ... or, anyway, pro-peace-of-mind.

 

(Assuming, of course, a lot of flying around high traffic density areas.)

 

By the way, interesting that your Avatar's reverted to those over-coffee'd rag 'n' tube days.

 

You must be much calmer these days, cruising the skies in your Legendary C182 knock-off. ;-)

Much calmer now ... Whooshaaaaah ...

Interesting calculation about the amount of area that a 20nm radius covers though.

 

The times I had occasion to hear 20 mile calls from the RPT were going into Longreach, where we were about to arrive at the same time as the flydoc. He was 20 miles out and we were about 5 miles out. It was nice to know where he was and in the end, he beat us to the airfield.

 

The other time was at Ayers Rock, there was a 737 who started calling the CTAF about 50 miles out, from memory. Those things turn base about 10 miles out; Scary!

 

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but I think a transponder would be better value for your money. Here's my reasons

 

1) You already have a radio, a transponder would add new traffic awareness value to your plane. A dual watch radio would only enhance what you already have.

 

2) RPT traffic have ADS-B receivers on board. Whether you're on the right radio frequency or not, they will see you, even if you're not talking to them or even aware that they're there.

 

3) In high traffic areas such as SE Qld, I have had ATC call me a number of times with traffic alerts, because they could also see me. Usually, they ask me to squawk ident to check if it is me, and every time it has been me, so the transponder may have already saved my life, my wife's life and someone else's, several times.

 

4) Around the coast, a transponder is also useful as an emergency beacon, by squawking the emergency code. ATC can track your position and direction of travel if you get it on early enough and at enough height. Every little bit helps.

 

 

[frank marriott]

If you are worried about RPT mode C displays on TCAS, no need for mode S.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

If you are worried about RPT mode C displays on TCAS, no need for mode S.

You're right of course but if you have to buy one it may as well be mode s. I think CaSA have actually mandated all new transponders fits have to be mode s.

 

 

[frank marriott]

You're right of course but if you have to buy one it may as well be mode s. I think CaSA have actually mandated all new transponders fits have to be mode s.

No argument if you are buying a new one. At this stage new fitting only applies to VH registered.

 

 

[kaz3g]

There was little or no discussion or reported issues that I could see before CASA changed it a while back without consultation which suggests to me that was the optimum at the time so they should simply revert to that.

I accept the last change occurred without consultation but no-one is surprised by that. Whether the absence of complaints about the previous system signifies its efficiency or the tired resignation of all of us who had been brought up in a full reporting environment, I don't know.

 

But I sure as heck won't be listening to 126.7 coming down the Inland Route in case some one is departing Pheasant Creek (I know it's there but not marked), or when coming south through the Glenburn Gap where there are a couple of small unmarked strips I've only ever seen used by Aggie aircraft), or when flying to Moorabbin from Coldstream, for example. I'll be on Area/MelbRad and I'm pretty confident everyone else will be, too.

 

And when I'm flying from Charleville to Mt Isa I will continue to be reassured by my ready access to Centre on Area. I have genuine doubts that anyone on a station airstrip will be doing inbound or departure calls on 126.7; they'll be talking to their crew on the ground on UHF or filing a SARTIME with Centre.

 

I think a number of these unmarked airstrips should be marked if they have regular traffic and, if they don't, concerns about them are really a bit of a furphy, aren't they? After all, they are OK for "no radio" operations...See and avoid.

 

I know two radios would solve some of the issues but hey, it's an Auster! I have been saving up for an Icom 210 to replace my older one. However, the semi-resident avionics expert who also operates our fire fighting helicopter told me today he made this change in his Tripacer and went back to the older 200 which he thought was better because you can miss important traffic on the preferred frequency if there is already chatter on the other.

 

Dos anyone have experience with the new 220?

 

Kaz

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Not sure about ICOM but with the Garmin SL40 when you choose to monitor the standby frequency, the main frequency always takes priority when both are receiving. It would not be safe otherwise.

 

 

[djpacro]

I bought my 210 after the firmware upgrade and the dual watch function worked well (sold the airplane a few years later).

 

New ICOM IC-A210 Released

 

 

[SDQDI]

Not sure about ICOM but with the Garmin SL40 when you choose to monitor the standby frequency, the main frequency always takes priority when both are receiving.

That is what my icom does as well, it doesn’t matter if someone is reciting a novel on the second frequency if someone speaks on your main frequency the main is what you get until they finish transmitting. The only transmissions that ever get interrupted are those that are coming through on your second frequency.

 

 

[Garfly]

It seems that the Icom 220 is almost double what the 210 used to be a few years back.

 

What, I wonder, is the diff? Is it mainly to do with the 220 being TSO'd? Like a certificated Rotax?

 

Are the 210s still available for closer to the old price?

 

 

[Sav 4352]

With 20 mile CTAF I have no doubt that this problem exists in a few other areas.

 

Home strip and strips East and West are 126.7 but strip 16 nm to the North is 127.65 and strip 14 nm to the South is 127.85 so it is possible to have three planes in the same airspace all on different frequencies.

 

 

[scre80]

With 20 mile CTAF I have no doubt that this problem exists in a few other areas.Home strip and strips East and West are 126.7 but strip 16 nm to the North is 127.65 and strip 14 nm to the South is 127.85 so it is possible to have three planes in the same airspace all on different frequencies.

Yes, similar in many other places.

 

 

[JG3]

Does anyone know how high the CTAF airspace extends above an uncontrolled airfield??

 

I understood that is is 3000' AGL, but I don't know where or if it's written....

 

The reason I ask is that I often hear aircraft overflying my home field at Kilcoy (alt 400') and announcing that they are approaching and overflying at 3500', direction, intentions, etc, etc.... An aircraft at that altitude is of no interest to me at circuit or approach altitude. But a radio transmission from that altitude carries widely, to Tyagera, NSW and way north of Gympie, and so ties up MULTICOM radio time for a wide area that also has no interest in the content. Seems to me that when flying x-country at 3000' AGL or above we would be best to not clutter the airwaves with such 'overflying' broadcasts......

 

 

[frank marriott]

Heard a RAA registered aircraft (when the RAA upper limit was 5000') give an overflying call at Winton Q, at 9500'.

 

Some people's understanding of radio use leaves me speechless. I forget whether on CTAF or area, but matters not.

 

 

[crashley]

Does anyone know how high the CTAF airspace extends above an uncontrolled airfield??I understood that is is 3000' AGL, but I don't know where or if it's written....

The reason I ask is that I often hear aircraft overflying my home field at Kilcoy (alt 400') and announcing that they are approaching and overflying at 3500', direction, intentions, etc, etc.... An aircraft at that altitude is of no interest to me at circuit or approach altitude. But a radio transmission from that altitude carries widely, to Tyagera, NSW and way north of Gympie, and so ties up MULTICOM radio time for a wide area that also has no interest in the content. Seems to me that when flying x-country at 3000' AGL or above we would be best to not clutter the airwaves with such 'overflying' broadcasts......

Tutorial: VHF communications — R/T procedures

 

An aircraft is 'in the vicinity' of a non-controlled aerodrome if it is within a horizontal distance of 10 nautical miles from that aerodrome and at a height above the aerodrome that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome. The height dimension of the aerodrome's airspace is a rather nebulous concept — few light aircraft pilots would be familiar with the potential flight path profiles of fast-moving RPT aircraft conducting their normal 'straight-in' or 'circling' approaches or their climb-out; so the upper and lower 'vicinity' limits (at various distances from the airfield with allowance for terrain elevation) are difficult to judge. Perhaps 5000 feet amsl could be regarded as the height limit of the airspace at most CTAF aerodromes – but aerodrome elevation must be taken into account.

 

CAR 166 C

 

 

[Garfly]

Yes, good point JG3, I also had the figure of 3,000' in my head but all I can find now in the CAAPs are these 'recommendations' and use of the word 'vicinity'.

 

 

 

 

 

[cscotthendry]

It seems that the Icom 220 is almost double what the 210 used to be a few years back.What, I wonder, is the diff? Is it mainly to do with the 220 being TSO'd? Like a certificated Rotax?

Are the 210s still available for closer to the old price?

Gary:

For a while there a few years ago, you couldn't buy a new iCom IC A210 in Australia. The powers that be (I think it was ACM) decreed a new standard for aviation radios and the 210 didn't meet that standard. So iCom stopped importing their 210s into Australia. I was told that the new standard only existed here in Oz and that iCom decided not to make a whole new radio, or even modify their existing ones, just so they could be sold here. That may have (probably has) changed since then, but when I was ordering the Legend, the A210 wasn't available for new installs here. There was still some old stock around the country if you went looking for them, but I was told that when that ran out there would be no more. If you're thinking of ordering an iCom in from overseas, you should check the status of whether it will be legal here.

 

Gaah! I just re-read your post and I got the wrong end of the stick here...Disregard:bash:

 

 

[Garfly]

No, that answered my query just fine. Thanks!

 

BTW, we were discussing (above) whether, if one had to choose, a Xponder or a Dual-watch radio would be the better safety investment (each about $2.5K).

 

As it happened, I listened in to a little drama unfolding on the local FIA freq. this morning (from the ground) which persuaded me that both are really very useful.

 

I think it turned out to be a false alarm but a member of the public, it seems, had reported an aircraft flying very low overhead with a rough sounding engine.

 

Apparently this was around 10 miles to the north of Taree airport. Anyway, I was listening to the Brisbane Centre controller trying, among other things, to get the help of aircraft in the area to go and have a look-see pending the arrival of a couple of assigned search & rescue choppers. But, of course, he could only 'see' aircraft with Xponders - which, it turned out, was only one at that time. However, he could not contact that aircraft despite several attempts. This was probably because every flyer in the whole Taree-Port Macquarie area is instructed (it's clearly written on the Newcastle VNC) to tune in to the shared 118.1 CTAF freq. So I guess this chap was doing exactly that and maybe wasn't listening to Area on a dual-watch. This left the controller semi-blind and semi-mute.

 

Eventually Centre did manage to get hold of that guy by asking another pilot to relay a message but by that time he was well past and said he'd need to re-fuel at Port Macquarie first. And anyway, the cavalry was starting to arrive by then. But the first thing the chopper pilot asked the controller when they made contact was "Any other traffic around there, we should know about?"

 

The thing is, quite a lot of training and air-work happens in that area but generally they won't be on Centre (due official instruction) and few, I believe, carry Xponders. So the Area controller would not be in a position to know or even to warn. He/she would mostly see IFR traffic and whatever VFR aircraft that are squawking 1200. Of course, the choppers probably arranged their own separation on CTAF whilst also staying in touch with Centre and their own controllers.

 

Anyway, I came away thinking how desirable both of these tools can be in busy environments; for oneself and for others.

 

 

[Chocolate]

G

 

No, that answered my query just fine. Thanks!BTW, we were discussing (above) whether, if one had to choose, a Xponder or a Dual-watch radio would be the better safety investment (each about $2.5K).

 

As it happened, I listened in to a little drama unfolding on the local FIA freq. this morning (from the ground) which persuaded me that both are really very useful.

 

I think it turned out to be a false alarm but a member of the public, it seems, had reported an aircraft flying very low overhead with a rough sounding engine.

 

Apparently this was around 10 miles to the north of Taree airport. Anyway, I was listening to the Brisbane Centre controller trying, among other things, to get the help of aircraft in the area to go and have a look-see pending the arrival of a couple of assigned search & rescue choppers. But, of course, he could only 'see' aircraft with Xponders - which, it turned out, was only one at that time. However, he could not contact that aircraft despite several attempts. This was probably because every flyer in the whole Taree-Port Macquarie area is instructed (it's clearly written on the Newcastle VNC) to tune in to the shared 118.1 CTAF freq. So I guess this chap was doing exactly that and maybe wasn't listening to Area on a dual-watch. This left the controller semi-blind and semi-mute.

 

Eventually Centre did manage to get hold of that guy by asking another pilot to relay a message but by that time he was well past and said he'd need to re-fuel at Port Macquarie first. And anyway, the cavalry was starting to arrive by then. But the first thing the chopper pilot asked the controller when they made contact was "Any other traffic around there, we should know about?"

 

The thing is, quite a lot of training and air-work happens in that area but generally they won't be on Centre (due official instruction) and few, I believe, carry Xponders. So the Area controller would not be in a position to know or even to warn. He/she would mostly see IFR traffic and whatever VFR aircraft that are squawking 1200. Of course, the choppers probably arranged their own separation on CTAF whilst also staying in touch with Centre and their own controllers.

 

Anyway, I came away thinking how desirable both of these tools can be in busy environments; for oneself and for others.

Garfly... That is exactly why I thought my safety was worth $5000 odd and I put in new mode s transponder and new radio with monitor facility. Good clear radio and there have been times it's obvious rpt have been told I am in the vicinity.