Night VFR Jabiru or similiar to hire?

[totalreaction]

Hey everyone,

 

Does anyone know if there are any RAAUS aircraft that are available to hire that can be flown in night VFR?

 

I've read the J230 can be fitted with a night option, but an all-night Google search didn't lead to finding anyone that hires such an aircraft out.

 

Any replies appreciated!

 

 

[planesmaker]

Night vfr is not available in RAAus. Must be VH registered

 

 

[facthunter]

I wouldn't recommend Night VFR as a concept. PIFR is much more safe..Nev

 

 

[KRviator]

And about 6 times as expensive...

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm not alone in saying what I have said.. You only have one life.. Nev.

 

 

[Nobody]

I wouldn't recommend Night VFR as a concept. PIFR is much more safe..Nev

Nev,

 

While you wouldn't recommend NVFR as a concept I certainly would. Some of the my most memorable flights have been at night when the air becomes smooth and the moonlight casts a wonderful glow over the landscape below. Some nights when the air is still you can feel every minor control input. I remember when I noticed that I had to adjust the trim every 5 minutes or so of the Cessna that I was flying, the C of G was changing as the fuel burnt off. You dont get to feel that when flying during the day.

 

All flying has some risk and each of us have to decide if the level of enjoyment you get exceeds the level of risk you are willing to take. Some people will never leave the ground because they see the risk too high. Other are happy to do high energy aerobatics at low level.

 

NVFR can be as dangerous or as safe as you, the pilot, make it. Weather conditions are very important and I certainly wouldn't try to fly under a layer of overcast in a remote area but to avoid it all together is to miss out on some of the best flying available. Knowing the phases of the moon and understanding when it will rise and set can also make a huge difference to the level of risk. Being current and having a backup plan to divert or abandon the flight are also important.

 

Back to the original question, As has been mentioned by plansemaker NVFR inst available under RAAus. The Jabiru can be flown NVFR when appropriately equipped if registered VH. The equipment required is listed in Appendices 4 and 5 of CAO 20.18 and AIP GEN 1.5. I don't know of any that are for hire.

 

Nobody

 

 

[totalreaction]

Thanks for the replies!

 

I guess then, my question should have been - does anyone know where any night VFR approved aircraft like the Jabiru 230 or similiar are located anywhere in the country.

 

I'm obviously looking for a more affordable way to build hours at night!

 

Cheers,

 

Totalreaction

 

 

[facthunter]

OF course it's lovely on the right night. Moon shining no clouds, town lights like fairyland below you etc What about a moonless night where you run into invisible ground fog. at low level in a circuit? Others report a single point light running all over the windscreen and they don't know which way is UP. Lucky to survive. Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

OF course it's lovely on the right night. Moon shining no clouds, town lights like fairyland below you etc What about a moonless night where you run into invisible ground fog. at low level in a circuit? Others report a single point light running all over the windscreen and they don't know which way is UP. Lucky to survive. Nev

What are you saying Nev - that no one should fly at night in a single engine aircraft or night flying should be banned?

 

I fly night VFR, - so what's the problem? And since you fly twins I ASSUME you have a night rating - correct?

 

I also highly recommend learning night circuits to all including RAA pilots - just in case someone gets caught out and stuffs up so at least they can put the aircraft on the ground.

 

 

[ben87r]

You wouldn’t get me in a single again at night for quids, but I’ve done it, on the best and worst of nights.

 

You would find a NVFR C152 easy enough, and not dissimilar price?

 

 

[facthunter]

I really don't expect my comments to be taken as against night flying. In IFR and any basic instrument dependent flight you need to be recent and have a plane with suitable electric system .Capacity and reliability. One thing about NIGHT VFR YOU Know it's NIGHT but it can suddenly NOT be VFR or you lost the town lights because there's a hill in between. Stratus cloud and fog are not visible on a moonless night. Neither is a horizon.. Incidents are well documented and CASA have been wary of Night VFR for many years now. In this case I'm very much in agreement with THEM. Jobs I've had I had to fly at all times and in all kinds of weather, whether I like the conditions or not.(as long as it's legal0.. People can't be relied on to always maintain VMC by day. At night it's even more difficult and deadly. If you can't see you need instruments day or night. Nev

 

 

[totalreaction]

You wouldn’t get me in a single again at night for quids, but I’ve done it, on the best and worst of nights.You would find a NVFR C152 easy enough, and not dissimilar price?

Ah yeah, good idea. Thanks. I've never come across one throughout my training, so that didn't spring to mind straight away.

 

 

[facthunter]

I recall testing officers not wanting to do that job .( NVFR test.) I don't blame them. I don't fly single engine over rough steep tall treed slopes in the daytime so why would I want to do it at night. Because you can't see it doesn't make it go away. Nev

 

 

[nathan_c]

Just because you have a personal issue with it doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valid and rewarding form of flight, and people shouldn’t be scared away from doing the training.

 

That’s not a jab at you, please don’t take it that way. People should definitely be aware of the additional risk, but just because it’s not for some doesn’t mean everyone should be discouraged. I quite enjoy NVFR.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well I'd like the thinking ones to BE scared away because it's not a safe concept. That's the issue, and it's based on a lot of personal experience and discussion with other people with a lot of involvement with it as well as CASA's views on it . I also stated testing officers didn't fancy the idea of being in that situation of having to check out a pilot.. THEY would know I would think. They are experienced pilots ATO's working for the CASA. They set up and recommend the PIFR rating as the preferred alternative. You may "enjoy" it .But talk to people who have scared themselves $#1tless and survived. The others you can't talk to.. You need to be a very accomplished pilot on instruments and have valid recency and be OK with only the provided cockpit lighting or when the inevitable happens IF you are not you, become just another statistic. If you are capable of that you can do the PIFR which will let you legally do a let down into a suitable airport and navigate to there on instruments at night. When there's no moon you only know you are in cloud or fog when you see the red and green Nav lights reflecting on the MILK you see when you put the landing light on. NO horizon. No idea which way is UP. .Nev

 

 

[KRviator]

The problem with that concept is: Unless you are recent and competent on instruments, you are setting yourself up with a false sense of confidence. "I've got an instrument rating, what can go wrong?", when you find yourself in a no-shit IMC approach you can get behind the airplane very quickly. Witness the number of accident reports of single-pilot IFR coming to grief.

 

If you plan a flight to an airport with a low dewpoint depression, you are likely to come unstuck, but that is part and parcel of your training as a pilot. How many VFR pilots get caught inadvertent IMC every year? And these are day-VFR pilots. More than NVFR pilots I would suggest, though I have no statistics to back that up. No one is suggesting we restrict this style of flying in any way not suggesting it is unsafe...

 

Night flying can be as dangerous as you want to make it. Like everything, it is about managing the risk and reducing it to a value you are prepared to accept. Would I do it in my -9? Certainly. But I have a decent EFIS and dual-axis autopilot. Would I do it in a clapped-out 152 from a local aero club? Perhaps, maybe even probably, not.

 

 

[Graham Pukallus]

Totalreaction, Just to give you some idea of what you are up for when doing your NFR rating, here is a

 

past NFR renewal doing night circuits on a clear moonlight night.

 

GP Night VFR at YRED

 

 

[Aldo]

Wow I don't believe some of the comments around NVFR (used to be Class IV), the guy/girl (totalreaction) simply asked a question and now NVFR is just slightly worse than going to war. TR obviously needs to build hours for some reason it may just be for a commercial or an instrument rating (you still need 10 hrs at night for a CIR) and for some jobs you need a minimum number of night hours.

 

Now NFFR in my opinion for most private pilots should be utilised as an extension of daylight so you can get back to base, not to go charging off at 2000 hrs on a 4 hour flight. If you are going to go flying at night make sure it is on a full moon that way if the noise up front stops (and that is very unlikely and if it does it will get your heart rate going) you have the best chance of being able to pick a reasonable place to put down (it's still not going to be pretty but maybe survivable).

 

Night flying is no more difficult than day flying you just need to be current, competent and ensure your planning ability is second to none (this is the part that will bring you undone)

 

Aldo

 

 

[facthunter]

Now "NVFR is slightly worse than going to war". In (I hope) a serious discussion on a matter primarily on SAFETY that throw away line offers nothing much.

 

" No more difficult than DAY flying" . Really! What if you drop something in the cockpit?. You need a torch to find it. (While you are still flying the plane.) Try contemplating an off field landing at night.. Finding one suitable, judging your height AGL on the descent and flaring, clearing a fence, seeing the powerlines or SWER. Shadows from the moon. different, a dark tree looks the same.as a shadow of one. The methods of determining wind direction you use in the day aren't available at night. Remember I'm only the messenger. Don't shoot me because the message doesn't suit your comfort zone. I'm doing the TALK because I've done the WALK.. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Unless that's an inadvertent CAUTION Nobody, don't be shy. I suggest you are obligated to elaborate. I put my cards on the table.

 

Oh very funny SSCBD. Has this turned into some kind of poll? Nev

 

 

[Nobody]

I did back up in post number 6 in this thread. I don't want to get into a protracted argument with you. It is clear that nothing I will say will change your mind on this topic.

 

I do want others who read the thread to know that there are people who disagree with you, hence the caution.

 

 

[facthunter]

I know there are those who disagree with me. When no one responds it concerns me and I keep adding matters for consideration based on FACTS that everybody is free to contribute to. I open myself up to all kinds of challenge by knowledgeable people from all over the Aviation game, by putting this stuff out there. I don't particularly enjoy that but I've put the effort in because the subject has come up for discussion, and it really needs to be . A discussion is not an argument.

 

. You are not really in a position to advise people that my information should be treated with caution. If you think so, contest some points. elaborate. I'm not trying to ban Night flying, just point out some of the dangers of it. I've been involved in accident investigation in the past and have had many good contacts with senior well trained and respected pilots over many years, that I learn from and will continue to learn from. I've also flown well over 3,000 hours at night. ( no big deal but one night I had about a 1% chance of surviving a situation with ground fog anyone could have gotten into without warning). When I read reports of people going in I know what conditions they have found themselves in and how training and better advice would have saved them. (as it did with Me). Flying is not very forgiving of bad judgements or errors . There' no reset button. Nev

 

 

[KRviator]

I wouldn't recommend Night VFR as a concept. PIFR is much more safe..Nev

How so, given your commentary below?

 

Try contemplating an off field landing at night. Finding one suitable, judging your height AGL on the descent and flaring, clearing a fence, seeing the powerlines or SWER. Shadows from the moon. different, a dark tree looks the same.as a shadow of one. The methods of determining wind direction you use in the day aren't available at night. Remember I'm only the messenger. Don't shoot me because the message doesn't suit your comfort zone. I'm doing the TALK because I've done the WALK.. Nev

Try contemplating an off-field landing in IMC. Finding one suitable - when you likely don't even have a visual chart available, yet alone any topographical information available. As soon as you descend below LSALT you are on your own, with exactly zero guidance. Methods of determining wind direction under the IFR are equally applicable and available as under NVFR. GPS/VOR/NDB tracking is all available under the NVFR, IAW the AIP.

 

I know there are those who disagree with me. When no one responds it concerns me and I keep adding matters for consideration based on FACTS that everybody is free to contribute to. I open myself up to all kinds of challenge by knowledgeable people from all over the Aviation game, by putting this stuff out there. I don't particularly enjoy that but I've put the effort in because the subject has come up for discussion, and it really needs to be . A discussion is not an argument. You are not really in a position to advise people that my information should be treated with caution. If you think so, contest some points. elaborate.

Members have been contesting points you raise, but you continue to parrot your alarmist rhetoric. What if this...What if that...as though a PIFR in a single is somehow the magical cure to these maladies when someone with your claimed experience should realise it isn't - and in those cases you raise a PIFR rating exposes you to more risk than simply flying VFR.

 

I'm not trying to ban Night flying, just point out some of the dangers of it.

While conveniently neglecting to point out the many dangers of SE IFR...

I've also flown well over 3,000 hours at night. ( no big deal but one night I had about a 1% chance of surviving a situation with ground fog anyone could have gotten into without warning).

And fog forms exclusively at night? That experience is equally applicable to VFR or IFR pilots. Remember fog is cloud on ground, so you wouldn't be visual at the minima, so off you go to your alternate. Or if that is fogged in too you are in exactly the same predicament no matter your flight category.

 

[facthunter]

Most of that is selective and not true to the whole picture I've tried to convey. I never mentioned an off-field landing in IMC That's a pretty desperate situation to face.. . It was only an off field landing at night which in a single engined plane or sometimes a twin, where an inflight fire might require an immediate landing. may be required. I have mentioned the single engined aspect many times over tiger country .. Fog is more inclined to form when temperatures are dropping. as at night. or evenings. You can't see it at night is the difference.. IFR rated pilots can legally do approved let downs.. What you plan to do illegally is up to you.. When there's no visible horizon you fly by instruments. Being able to do that is pretty much a fall back requirement. You should have had topographical information to derive your LSALTS.. You would be crazy not to carry a WAC chart You only need them if you lose visibility. That's always a possibility morso at night..

 

Pointing out alarmist rhetoric. If you carry that through you wouldn't train for an engine failure . How can mentioning risks that are facts be alarmist? Being aware of them is part of your duty of care for your Pax and the industry's reputation. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

By the way . If you make pointing things out so difficult, don't wonder why people won't bother in the future.

 

KRviator, that stuff you put out wasn't even close to honest. . That's what makes it difficult.. Nev .