What is this engine?

[danny_galaga]

Hi there. I joined a while ago. I came across this engine in an antique store and both the owner and I are stumped. I promised him I'd ask here. That was a while ago and since then I've been busy and then my computer decided to pretend that some websites don't exist anymore! In safari, this site is a figment of my imagination, but in chrome it's alive! So for quite a while I thought you guys had pulled the plug!

 

Anyway, to the engine. Early on, I figured it was a target drone motor. He thought ultralight but I pointed out to him an engine of that physical size from that era would be lucky to make 5 HP. I don't know much about the history of target drones, it was just a hunch and by the looks I imagined from the 30's. Once I did a bit of research I learnt that 1) The biggest and most successful of the earlier target drones was Radioplane (who had a rather fetching girl named Norma Jean Baker on the assembly line in WWII) and 2) This aint from Radioplane!

 

At a glance it looks similar but you can see it clearly isn't the same engine. My own thought now is that maybe its a mix of different things. Maybe a drone propellor bolted to an outboard motor? It would explain why it has mufflers, which a drone motor definitely wouldn't have, or need.

 

Thoughts?

 

In any case, I look forward to reading about ultralights etc in more detail now I know my mac was conspiring against me :D

 

 

 

 

 

[onetrack]

Updraft carburettor indicates an early design, say between 1915 and 1935. Two-stroke design is designers approach to get higher HP from a smaller engine.

 

Very simplistic design appears to indicate an early local attempt at very light aircraft motive power. Remember, a lot of early, small and cheap aircraft were quite light weight, and didn't need huge HP to get airborne.

 

Quite possibly a local, one-off prototype engine. Early local engineers were very capable, and many were also quite ambitious and very talented.

 

 

[riverduk]

Hi Danny, possibly worth a call to the ultra light museum at Holbrook in NSW Contact Us. they have a few U/L engines, both one offs and commercial on display there, so someone may be able to help,

 

cheers, Ross

 

 

[Raytol]

Hi Danny,

 

It could be a Pober Pixie Twin, a version of the engine used in the original Ron Wheeler Skycraft Scout. If I remember correctly it was built using Victor lawnmower

 

barrels, etc. Cliff Van Praag may know more about it.

 

 

[facthunter]

There's no Victa stuff in that. It's heavy I'd put it at early 30's American by the carb and general design. It's very crude and not likely to have put out much power. About 5 HP?. It may not be for aircraft. Could be a ground power unit or pump engine. It looks as though it's a horizontal shaft ruling out the outboard possibility. In the late twenties, competition for motorcycle engined planes was popular in the US ending up with derivatives of the Henderson four engines being developed. All of the US motorcycle engines of the period would be superior to this engine in all aspects. Largish two stroke aero engines were used in the Walsh Flying boats built and flown in new Zealand very early on they were US made.. One make was Hall I recall. Quite big four or six cylinder in line engines. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Not as good looking as Norma Jean, but then who was?

 

 

[onetrack]

The fact that the engine is cast-iron sure doesn't lend any weight to the idea that it was designed as an aircraft engine.

 

Aluminium was used in a number of early aircraft engines, with the Léon Levavasseur-designed "Antoinette" V8 , being a prime example - and the start of WW1 saw aluminium being used regularly in engine designs.

 

Perhaps the engine was designed for a simple ground application, and someone thought it had potential for a light aircraft powerplant, and just bolted a prop to it.

 

Try as I might - and despite extensive searches, including a Google image search - I can find nothing anywhere that even faintly resembles this little engine. Perhaps quizzing the SmokStak guys might produce an answer.

 

All this leads me to believe that a one-off prototype is the answer to its existence.

 

 

[danny_galaga]

The fact that the engine is cast-iron sure doesn't lend any weight to the idea that it was designed as an aircraft engine.Aluminium was used in a number of early aircraft engines, with the Léon Levavasseur-designed "Antoinette" V8 , being a prime example - and the start of WW1 saw aluminium being used regularly in engine designs.

Perhaps the engine was designed for a simple ground application, and someone thought it had potential for a light aircraft powerplant, and just bolted a prop to it.

 

Try as I might - and despite extensive searches, including a Google image search - I can find nothing anywhere that even faintly resembles this little engine. Perhaps quizzing the SmokStak guys might produce an answer.

 

All this leads me to believe that a one-off prototype is the answer to its existence.

Yeah my thoughts too. About aluminium. The wright brothers were some of the first to use it in any kind of petrol engine- probably the first people to use aluminium pistons. Good call on the cast iron, I hadn’t even noticed! Next I am in the shop I’ll have a closer look

 

 

[bexrbetter]

There was so many small companies making these types of engines (2 stroke flat twins) in small numbers between the wars and during WW2, you may never know.

 

Motorbikes, cyclecars, drones, minicars, stationary industrial engines, numbers of engines turn up around the place that are never identified.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Hi Danny,It could be a Pober Pixie Twin, a version of the engine used in the original Ron Wheeler Skycraft Scout. If I remember correctly it was built using Victor lawnmower

barrels, etc. Cliff Van Praag may know more about it.

...if you can find him. Cliff is a member of our pub, but disappeared a year or more ago. We're trying to track him down.

 

 

[Yenn]

Did the Wright brothers use aluminium pistons. I thought that W O Bentley pioneered them

 

 

[facthunter]

The original 1903 Wright 4 cyl engine was built by an employee (Taylor) with an aluminium block and cast iron pistons in separate cast iron cylinders, putting out about 14 HP. It suffered from overheating due in most part to the mixture being burned in a separate combustion chambers added on to each cylinder. Curtiis offered to build an engine for them but.the offer was not accepted. Later Curtiss -Wright became a very big entity in the US Aviation Industry. Nev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Could this have been an early orchard fan for reducing frost damage? Plenty of them around our district today.

 

 

[facthunter]

Usually with a 400HP V8 heating the area with the exhaust. That idea didn't start till the 90's did it?. They even use helicopters sometimes. If you don't do it properly you make fog worse. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

Cliff was living at Wedderburn some years ago as was Steve Cohen. Perhaps someone from the forum also resides there.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Cliff was living at Wedderburn some years ago as was Steve Cohen. Perhaps someone from the forum also resides there.

He has moved up to near YQDI but has been overseas with a sick relative for a while now.

 

 

[danny_galaga]

The original 1903 Wright 4 cyl engine was built by an employee (Taylor) with an aluminium block and cast iron pistons in separate cast iron cylinders, putting out about 14 HP. It suffered from overheating due in most part to the mixture being burned in a separate combustion chambers added on to each cylinder. Curtiis offered to build an engine for them but.the offer was not accepted. Later Curtiss -Wright became a very big entity in the US Aviation Industry. Nev

Ha! Right you are! Being the first aluminium block isn’t too shabby though! I was in kitty hawk in 2003 for the 100th anniversary of their first flight. They reconstructed the engine from scratch. They a spare as a cutaway which was fantastic. I thought the pistons were Ali but I clearly remembered it wrong!

 

 

[facthunter]

Alloy Pistons came into use about 1913. The 4 valve racing Indians had a dowmetal alloy of aluminium and magnesium. Soft and light, and didn't last long with a high expansion rate. Ran .016" Clearance ( sixteen thou of an inch) on a 3.4 inch bore. Some engines ran that alloy till the early 30's , and "Y" alloy and aircraft type aluminium copper alloy for casting came out about 1928. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

The fact that the engine is cast-iron sure doesn't lend any weight to the idea that it was designed as an aircraft engine.

Good one. Pun intended?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Could this have been an early orchard fan for reducing frost damage? Plenty of them around our district today.

A local farmer bought a helicopter for that purpose. 2am: slow flight up and down the rows to bring down the inversion layer.

 

 

[deltacharlie]

Hi there. I joined a while ago. I came across this engine in an antique store and both the owner and I are stumped. I promised him I'd ask here. That was a while ago and since then I've been busy and then my computer decided to pretend that some websites don't exist anymore! In safari, this site is a figment of my imagination, but in chrome it's alive! So for quite a while I thought you guys had pulled the plug!Anyway, to the engine. Early on, I figured it was a target drone motor. He thought ultralight but I pointed out to him an engine of that physical size from that era would be lucky to make 5 HP. I don't know much about the history of target drones, it was just a hunch and by the looks I imagined from the 30's. Once I did a bit of research I learnt that 1) The biggest and most successful of the earlier target drones was Radioplane (who had a rather fetching girl named Norma Jean Baker on the assembly line in WWII) and 2) This aint from Radioplane!

 

At a glance it looks similar but you can see it clearly isn't the same engine. My own thought now is that maybe its a mix of different things. Maybe a drone propellor bolted to an outboard motor? It would explain why it has mufflers, which a drone motor definitely wouldn't have, or need.

 

Thoughts?

 

In any case, I look forward to reading about ultralights etc in more detail now I know my mac was conspiring against me :D

Danny,

Drop a line and as many photos as possible to The Old Machinery Magazine. www.tomm.net.au. Their readers can identify just about anything.

 

Dennis