Fatal Trike crash Girrwaween, NT 27/10/13

[turboplanner]

Philosophy classes and politics are over on the other forum.

 

 

[old man emu]

Who said that this Coroner's Inquest took weeks or months? I'd suggest that the Hearing was knocked over in a day. A defended assault matter only takes a few hours to deal with.

 

 

[M61A1]

Who said that this Coroner's Inquest took weeks or months? I'd suggest that the Hearing was knocked over in a day. A defended assault matter only takes a few hours to deal with.

Only basing that on my own experience, courts seem to be notorious for dragging out simple things. It's not just the length of the actual hearing, but but all the preliminary processes as well. If these things were a brief matter, we'd see reports in a few weeks, maybe months, instead of years after.

 

 

[old man emu]

A date for the Inquest cannot be set until a full Brief of Evidence has been completed. That means chasing up eyewitness statements, completion of technical examinations into the human,machine and environmental factors, and the submission of statements based on those examionations.

 

After the Brief has been completed, the Coroner has to find a time in the Court's diary to hear the Inquest. Don't forget that places in the Court diary for the future would have been filled with other Inquest dates well before the date of a particular death.

 

Apart from obvious reportable deaths, such as sudden deaths due to natural causes, or accident deaths obviously caused by the deceased (drugs, swimming related drownings), a vacancy might not be found in the diary for up to 12 months.

 

Coroners are usually pretty switched on people who will not put up with the delaying antics lawyers employ in the Civil and Criminal jurisdictions.

 

 

[M61A1]

A date for the Inquest cannot be set until a full Brief of Evidence has been completed. That means chasing up eyewitness statements, completion of technical examinations into the human,machine and environmental factors, and the submission of statements based on those examionations.

There's quite a bit of time and money tied up right there....

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's quite a bit of time and money tied up right there....

That's why we try to tell you that this can happen to you.

 

 

[old man emu]

I said, "A date for the Inquest cannot be set until a full Brief of Evidence has been completed. That means chasing up eyewitness statements, completion of technical examinations into the human,machine and environmental factors, and the submission of statements based on those examinations."

 

There's quite a bit of time and money tied up right there....

Unfortunately, in the Real World, deaths are not investigated; conclusions reached, and legal niceties completed in 45 minutes plus ads as happens in CSI USA.

 

Also, in most Coronial matters, the Crown is represented by a Police Prosecutor, the next-of-kin might engage their own solicitor, and any person likely to be charged with a criminal offence is wise to have a solicitor present. It is only in the rare big deals, like major bushfires and disasters involving multiple deaths that the bewigged ones would stick their noses into the trough.

 

 

[M61A1]

That's why we try to tell you that this can happen to you.

I am quite aware that I can happen. I do try hard to make sure that it won't.

That knowledge won't stop me from criticising a system that I think is very flawed and provide very little value for the cost.

 

Unfortunately, in the Real World, deaths are not investigated; conclusions reached, and legal niceties completed in 45 minutes plus ads as happens in CSI USA.

I am aware of this also, but I do think that we could manage the whole thing a lot better than we do. As mention above, we need to consider the cost against the returns. In quite a few of the cases I have read, I would personally consider that the effort and cost expended was greatly out of proportion with any benefit and particularly with aviation the benefit could have been had without the need for an inquest simply by providing the technical analysis.

In regard to the HF side, We haven't found new ways to kill ourselves since the dawn of aviation, why do we need new lessons?

 

 

[Callahan]

Thank you Downunder, M61 & others for more or less agreeing with me while Turbo took exception to my outlook on the case from my position in the U.S. Looks like we're about 50/50 on the sad situation in opinions. Glad I started the discussion though.

 

However, I apologize for butting in to you guy's business for which I know very little concerning how things work "down under." Very interesting though!

 

We too have many, many rules & regulations in the U.S. The good thing about having an overabundance of R & R though is that our FAA can't keep up with them all nor do they really know the rules & regulations themselves. That's how I get away with all the crap I do. Any FAA investigator, all he or she would have to do is watch a couple of my YouTube videos & bust me on multiple charges. The only problem is that I'm 68 years old & simply don't give a.....hoot.

 

I'm about to release another video titled "Aussie Rescue" whereby I come upon two of your intrepid brethren Aussies paddling their tiny kayak down our 2,000+ mile Mississippi river. I spotted them, landed on floats & brought them needed supplies for which they were very grateful.....but WOW-WEE did they stink to High Heaven having been on the river for two months! You guys are some kind of TOUGH! I have lots of respect for you people!

 

P.S. You can get killed crossing the street too!

 

As I read it, the deceased had not flown ANYTHING in the 18 months prior, and that last flight was a BFR.Then he gets in a totally unfamiliar aircraft solo and starts low level manouvers on the first flight....FFS....

The repeated references to his character do nothing to change the facts about his stupid decision making....( but might make the family feel better?)

 

I don't really understand the witch hunt with the gopro. Finding it didn't change much but fed the lawyers and police ego....

 

Bet the bloke regrets sending it in......

[Callahan]

I understand Turbo & you know far more about your own countries rules & regulations than I do. In fact, I know little to nothing about how your system works. But delving into a person's personal life history, which had no bearing on the case, was simply uncalled for...by a Coroner no less. Report the facts. Not the man's irrelevant life history since birth. I'm sure the victim's attorney can discover that himself & provide it to the family if they even request something like that....which I doubt they would even want to know.

 

If that had happened to me I'm sure that all my wife would want to know is how long it would take to get her 350K life insurance policy cashed out on my dead ass!

 

I see you've got a winner Callahan; this is not an NTSB report, nor an ATSB report, it's a Coroner's report into the death of a person not the crash of an aircraft. So there's personal information there for the family, and it's rare for a Coroner to do much more than mention that the cause of death was a broken neck, which occurred after a plane fell out of the sky. This was a good one with a lot more detail.

[old man emu]

I understand Turbo & you know far more about your own countries rules & regulations than I do. In fact, I know little to nothing about how your system works. But delving into a person's personal life history, which had no bearing on the case, was simply uncalled for...by a Coroner no less.

Well, now you know how our system works. I'm sorry that I can't find a copy of the Death Certificate of one of my ancestors right now, but the Death Certificate contains a heck of a lot of information regarding the identity of the deceased; their occupation; marital status; where and when born, and to whom; marriages and issue, as well as cause of death. Apart from cause of death, the information relating to the other things is required to settle the deceased's Estate. For those of us researching our ancestry, it is also a fountain of useful information.

 

As flyers, we are only concerned with identifying the causes of the crash, so we would ignore the other stuff. If, in the future, one wanted to research the causes, then the filed copy of all material presented in the Inquest could be obtained. Based on the information supplied by experts during an Inquest, a Coroner can make recommendations aimed at preventing, or minimising the causes, or factors contributing to a death.

 

 

[Callahan]

Emu,

 

I liked everything except that last sentence.

 

"A Coroner (a Coroner? - really?) Can make recommendations aimed at preventing, or minimizing the causes or factors, contributing to the death."

 

In medical sense you must mean?.... unless all of Australia's Coroners are reincarnated & former multi-thoussand hour pilots with experience in a wide variety of aircraft in their former lives?

 

As for me, a Coroner or "an expert in the field" would be the last hanging dick I would take advice from. Dead or alive. Reincarnated or no.

 

I wrote a book about some dangerous ass flying I did. You can read about 35 pages on Amazon for free. I never crashed an airplane. One of the very few to make that claim. 62 pilots were killed in ten years of operations.

 

Over & Back by Wild Bill Callahan. On Amazon.

 

"You can get killed taking a crap & straining too hard."

 

Well, now you know how our system works. I'm sorry that I can't find a copy of the Death Certificate of one of my ancestors right now, but the Death Certificate contains a heck of a lot of information regarding the identity of the deceased; their occupation; marital status; where and when born, and to whom; marriages and issue, as well as cause of death. Apart from cause of death, the information relating to the other things is required to settle the deceased's Estate. For those of us researching our ancestry, it is also a fountain of useful information.As flyers, we are only concerned with identifying the causes of the crash, so we would ignore the other stuff. If, in the future, one wanted to research the causes, then the filed copy of all material presented in the Inquest could be obtained. Based on the information supplied by experts during an Inquest, a Coroner can make recommendations aimed at preventing, or minimising the causes, or factors contributing to a death.

[facthunter]

I agree with your sentiments. to a point. There are shortcomings and some very questionable recommendations sometimes coming out of some these inquests, but that is a minority of them. A person fulfilling the Coroner function has to be pretty across something OR get the right advice and ask the right questions. Corruption ( the real enemy) is usually absent so the chances of getting something from the effort and anguish is positive. Nev

 

 

[Callahan]

Emu,

 

I like you. I like all you Aussies whether you like me or not. I guess I have an unconformist attitude but that's who I am.

 

You put my YouTube link up & I really appreciate it. But some of you guys take this Coroner stuff too seriously & you depend on "experts in the field" for which the most dangerous thing they've ever done in their lives is crank their car for the drive to an office...or a serious bowel movement as stated earlier.

 

YOU GUYS ARE THE EXPERTS.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Emu,I like you. I like all you Aussies whether you like me or not. I guess I have an unconformist attitude but that's who I am.

 

You put my YouTube link up & I really appreciate it. But some of you guys take this Coroner stuff too seriously & you depend on "experts in the field" for which the most dangerous thing they've ever done in their lives is crank their car for the drive to an office...or a serious bowel movement as stated earlier.

 

YOU GUYS ARE THE EXPERTS.

Don’t worry yourself unduly; Coroners reports very rarely appear on this forum. The ATSB reports are the aviation related ones.

 

 

[facthunter]

The system is there. We didn't design it. The police investigate U/L accidents.. Not many of us think we have the best system. Most of us would swap for the NZ way, if that was offered.. I didn't think you liked experts, Callahan.... Geez, that's a good name for an investigative, individualist.. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

YOU GUYS ARE THE EXPERTS.

:faint:Yeah, sure.....That's why we're all here on the internet.

 

 

[onetrack]

Callahan, I guess the difference between the American Way and the Australian Way is this ...

 

The Australian Way: We prefer to have a reasonably formal investigation into accidental deaths, with a final report actually detailing the reasons why - with a written report available, that those of us who prefer to avoid others mistakes, can refer to.

 

The American Way: You prefer to pick up the crash remains, and shrug and say, "Waal, we did hear him yell out - 'HEY GUYS! HOLD MA BEER, AND WATCH THIS!' ...".

 

 

[M61A1]

Sounds good, but the reality is that the "Australian Way" is to demand a full investigation to prove that it wasn't your or your loved ones fault that they killed themselves, regardless of cost, and to make sure you have someone to blame , (anyone but your loved one), and if you can't get it straight up, go to the media (A Current Affair, anyone?) When half the time the deceased might as well have said "Hold my beer, watch this".

 

"I't not his fault your honour, he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing. That publican is at fault because he gave him the beer."

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sounds good, but the reality is that the "Australian Way" is to demand a full investigation to prove that it wasn't your or your loved ones fault that they killed themselves, regardless of cost, and to make sure you have someone to blame , (anyone but your loved one), and if you can't get it straight up, go to the media (A Current Affair, anyone?) When half the time the deceased might as well have said "Hold my beer, watch this"."I't not his fault your honour, he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing. That publican is at fault because he gave him the beer."

It's always interesting to see how the other side looks at life.

 

 

[M61A1]

It's always interesting to see how the other side looks at life.

When you live amongst them, you get a bit of an idea about how they think. That said, I swear some of our magistrates and legislators live in a completely different world again.

Also, some/most of those court cases you post illustrate my point perfectly.

 

 

[Downunder]

Sounds good, but the reality is that the "Australian Way" is to demand a full investigation to prove that it wasn't your or your loved ones fault that they killed themselves, regardless of cost, and to make sure you have someone to blame , (anyone but your loved one), and if you can't get it straight up, go to the media (A Current Affair, anyone?) When half the time the deceased might as well have said "Hold my beer, watch this"."I't not his fault your honour, he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing. That publican is at fault because he gave him the beer."

10 rum and cokes, 4 times over the limit, a couple of bongs and 2.00 am on a motorbike but the NT coroner thinks poor "detour" signage is at fault....

 

Road diversion set-up contributed to Darwin musician's death, coroner says

 

Just like the trike report where his aviation currency was largely glossed over, this idiots condition being full of p!ss and drugs garnered one line in the article.

 

Must be something in the water up there.....

 

 

[old man emu]

When investigating the cause of any sort of fatal incident three things must be considered:

 

1. The human who was involved the incident.

 

2. The environment where the incident happened

 

3. The condition and behaviour of any tool involved in the incident.

 

By environment, I mean everything which could effect a person's behaviour where the incident occurred

 

By tool, I mean any man made object.

 

If anything raises a red flag to a Coroner during an Inquest, he can make a recommendation that something is done to reduce the future impact of the flagged matter. Whether or not the recommendation can be carried out is not the point of an Inquest. Many Coroner's recommendations have failed to be implemented because after examination, implementing them was not practicable. There's no harm in making a suggestion.

 

In the case of the intoxicated rider, he was an accident waiting to happen. If not in the road works, then somewhere else before he got to his destination. That the set-up of the road diversion was not up to standard might not have been a factor in the collision, but at least the bodies who set up the diversion have been given a kick up the **** and hopefully have improved their performance. The Coroner definitely considered the set up an environmental factor.

 

 

[onetrack]

The Darwin motorbike rider is a classic example of the old adage - "make something idiot-proof, and a better class of idiot will find a way around the idiot-proofing".

 

Now, as an old Roads Scholar (road builder), I know there's a lot of roadworks instructional signs that could be vastly better, as regards the manner in which they've been set up.

 

But - despite having come across a fair few deficient roadworks sites, I have yet to damage a vehicle or seriously maim myself, because of the roadworkers skills deficiencies.

 

Perhaps it's because I was taught "defensive driving", where you make allowances for other people making serious errors in skill or judgement.

 

One of those defensive driving techniques I was taught, is to exercise caution and a greatly reduced speed, whenever you sight any kind of roadworks. I'd guess the Darwinian motorbike rider missed that lesson.

 

 

[turboplanner]

When you live amongst them, you get a bit of an idea about how they think. That said, I swear some of our magistrates and legislators live in a completely different world again.Also, some/most of those court cases you post illustrate my point perfectly.

This is Australia; we are subject to Australian Law; those cases where I tried to show you how the law works were all based on Australian Law and its precedents. I've pointed out on may occasions that it's sometimes difficult to comprehend the law because of its "reverse nature, and recommended that if you don't understand it, you should spend about an hour's flying cost and get a briefing from a specialist lawyer in Public Liability cases. If people choose not to do that it doesn't worry me; they are responsible for their own actions.