ME-262 Airshow flight

[Phil Perry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FA1yCfz9s4

[kaz3g]

The aircraft that nearly defeated the Allies.

 

Kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

Originally it was a T/W and to get the tail up you had to hit the brakes sometimes. looks OK but that's not everything. Early jet engines weren't putting out much thrust. It doesn't rocket into the sky. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

Hitler saved us by insisting it be configured as a bomber. If it had been a fighter as the designed envisioned it, we would have been in enormous trundle.

 

Actually, the Fuerher saved us a few times...he stopped the bombing of British airfields and directed his phlegm at London. This allowed the RAAF a bit of respite so they could re-gather and reform.

 

Kaz

 

 

[johnm]

Guessing the 262 was late 1942 maybe early 1943 ? Lots of allied hardware flying around then .......... and even in 1944 numerically at a disadvantage

 

A 262 even though technologically advanced (at speed) was like a cow sourrounded by blow flies (with all respect for the many that suffered by the 262)

 

Could adolf saved the Reich ? ...... lets hear it kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

The Germans were actually building advanced aircraft in very large numbers towards the end and it was probably more the shortage of fuel than manufacturing materials that finished them....that and the Americans.

 

They had several designs flying that had extreme performance for the time as well as the 262, and pilots like Johnny Johnson and Jacques Costerman both write about the great difficulty of stopping these jet and rocket propelled aircraft using the Allies' prop types available at the time. Probably the fastest Allied aircraft on line was the Tempest which was a pretty terrifying aircraft because it's weight coupled with nearly 2500 HP and eventually 3000 HP meant it's acceleration downhill was phenomenal.

 

The Sabre IIB engine in the Tempest produced 2,420 bhp at SL using +11 lbs 3,850 rpm. Maximum speed of a Tempest V equipped with the Sabre IIB engine was 435 mph at 19,000 feet. Note that later trials using 150 octane petrol and +13 lbs got nearly 3000hp out of the H- pattern engine

 

The Napier Sabre

 

By comparison, the 262 achieved 560 mph top speed at optimum altitude with 4 x 30 mm cannon and an arsenal of rockets to do damage with apart from bombs. It was in service in July 1942 whereas the English Meteor got going in March 1943 and the first American jet in the war was the Shooting Star in January 1944. By comparison, Germany also had the Arado 234 going in June 1943 and the Heinkel 162 in December 1944.

 

There really is little doubt there technological development was well in front of ours, but they also were fighting at home by that time and took the most amazing risks to get these aircraft flying. Do a search for the Heinkel and its fuel...terrifying!

 

Kaz

 

 

[willedoo]

The Germans were actually building advanced aircraft in very large numbers towards the end and it was probably more the shortage of fuel than manufacturing materials that finished them....that and the Americans.

Kaz, I figure your'e talking German air power only there. The reason I say that is that overall, in the war, the Russians accounted for 80% of Hitler's losses (with allied material support). We mopped up the other 20%. If Hitler and Stalin had remained semi - allies, the amount of manpower, material and finances used up at the Eastern Front would have been available for use in the West, and we wouldn't have won the war. The Russians couldn't have done it without American and British logistic support, but they are the ones that paid the price in human terms to defeat Hitler. Average losses of 19,000 per day for the duration of their part of the war. Our WW2 wall of remembrance at the war memorial in Canberra is fifty metres long. The same dimensions height wise, translates to 10 kilometers in length to represent the Russian losses. Not taking anything away from the Americans, but it needs to be put into context.

 

 

[willedoo]

One thing I like about the 262 is the pull start pilot motors; single cylinder motorcycle engines. The post war Russian copy of the engine had the same setup which suited their remote airfield operations.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Yes, only discussing the Western front and focussed on the war in the air.

 

A proper analysis has to take into account the respective losses suffered by each protagonist and the reasons for them. Of the estimated 70 million total deaths in WWII, 30 million died on the Eastern Front, but these battles were largely ground-based as the Russians had manpower but not a lot of skilled air power. They also had the vastness of the terrain and the climate - factors that brought Napolean undone, too.

 

JJ made some interesting observations about the Russians undisciplined gaggles of aircraft and their willingness to sustain huge losses.

 

Kaz

 

 

[willedoo]

Kaz, the way I see it, the Russian willingness to sustain huge losses was decreed at the very top and backed up by party commisars attached to every unit as enforcers of the common goal. Stalin has his critics because of his harshness to his own people in the war, but if he wasn't that way, the Soviets would have been defeated. That may have lead to our defeat, maybe not, as Hitler would still have had to tie up lots of resources as an occupying power.

 

Stalin's hard line also had a high degree of public support as the Russians were fighting for the Motherland on their own soil and everything was at stake. Same as the British with their backs to the wall.

 

The undisciplined gaggles of Russian aircraft is an interesting one. Sheer numbers helped, and compared to the Germans, I guess you would have to say the discipline and structure were not comparable. But what won the day in my opinion, was firstly the Russian fighting spirit. Defenders have a lot more incentive to do well than the invaders. Secondly, I think the undisciplined nature of their air war worked in their favour. The German mindset is well and truly contained in the box, whereas the Russian mindset doesn't even comprehend the concept of a box. You never know what they'll do next, and that's a good asset to them.

 

It would have been a lot harder for us if Hitler had deferred to the professionals in the Luftwaffe and let them get on with the job. But always a hard task when you are continually losing infrastructure and manufacturing ability to bombing raids.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Kaz, the way I see it, the Russian willingness to sustain huge losses was decreed at the very top and backed up by party commisars attached to every unit as enforcers of the common goal. Stalin has his critics because of his harshness to his own people in the war, but if he wasn't that way, the Soviets would have been defeated. That may have lead to our defeat...

Let's not forget the man who saved us all in WWII; a German stationed in Tokyo, but secretly spying for the Soviets. He was eventually arrested by the Japanese and tortured to death.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The rest off us got rusty Datsuns. The Beetle was known as Hitler's revenge.. Nev

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

Kaz, the way I see it, the Russian willingness to sustain huge losses was decreed at the very top and backed up by party commisars attached to every unit as enforcers of the common goal. Stalin has his critics because of his harshness to his own people in the war, but if he wasn't that way, the Soviets would have been defeated. That may have lead to our defeat, maybe not, as Hitler would still have had to tie up lots of resources as an occupying power.Stalin's hard line also had a high degree of public support as the Russians were fighting for the Motherland on their own soil and everything was at stake. Same as the British with their backs to the wall.

 

The undisciplined gaggles of Russian aircraft is an interesting one. Sheer numbers helped, and compared to the Germans, I guess you would have to say the discipline and structure were not comparable. But what won the day in my opinion, was firstly the Russian fighting spirit. Defenders have a lot more incentive to do well than the invaders. Secondly, I think the undisciplined nature of their air war worked in their favour. The German mindset is well and truly contained in the box, whereas the Russian mindset doesn't even comprehend the concept of a box. You never know what they'll do next, and that's a good asset to them.

 

It would have been a lot harder for us if Hitler had deferred to the professionals in the Luftwaffe and let them get on with the job. But always a hard task when you are continually losing infrastructure and manufacturing ability to bombing raids.

Hitler and his party cronies were fat, middle-aged racists. The German Armed forces were well trained, professional, and led by the old Prussian officer corps. Because of disillusioned, drug-addicted s***ts like Herr Adolf, brilliant engineering ideas and the brains behind it, were lost. Von Braun, possibly the better known individual to be captured by the west, almost singlehandedly sent Armstrong to the moon. The German "thinking in the box" way of doing things, almost got the better of the Allies. What won the war for the Allies, was a person called Adolf. (Dickhead)

Erik in Oz. (German descendant)