RAA fatality near Emerald

[Happyflyer]

Just for the record...from the current ops manual:

Section 2.06 - 2

 

ISSUE 7.1 –AUGUST 2016

 

PRIVILEGES OF A STUDENT OR CONVERTING PILOT CERTIFICATE HOLDER

 

3. A Student or Converting Pilot Certificate holder, or an applicant for a Student or Converting Pilot Certificate, may:

 

(a) undergo dual flight training with an Instructor who is supervised by a Flight Training School or Satellite Flight Training School in accordance with the appropriate syllabus of training provided in the RAAus Syllabus of Flight Training.

 

4. A Student or Converting Pilot Certificate holder, or an applicant for a Student or Converting Pilot Certificate must not conduct solo flight as the sole occupant of a recreational aeroplane unless:

 

(a) a Student or Converting Pilot Certificate has been issued; and

 

(b) they have attained the age of 15 years; and

 

© they have passed a written pre-solo air legislation examination; and

 

(d) the flight is directly supervised and authorised by at least a Senior Instructor with approval from a CFI.

Thanks. What it doesn’t say is that it has to be in a two seat aircraft.

 

 

[farri]

I`ve just had a look at the RA-Aus Ops Manual and copied and pasted from it; Take note it says may!

 

PRIVILEGES OF A STUDENT OR CONVERTING PILOT CERTIFICATE HOLDER 3.

 

A Student or Converting Pilot Certificate holder, or an applicant for a Student or Converting Pilot Certificate, may: (a) undergo dual flight training with an Instructor who is supervised by a Flight Training School or Satellite Flight Training School in accordance with the appropriate syllabus of training provided in the RAAus Syllabus of Flight Training.

 

https://members.raa.asn.au/storage/1-syllabus-of-flight-training-issue-7-v2-single-pages.pdf

 

PILOT CERTIFICATE - GROUP A or B REQUIREMENTS FOR ISSUE - GROUP A or B.

 

(d) have undergone ground and flight training in accordance with the RAAus Syllabus of Flight Training (published separately), for the Aeroplane Group in which the Pilot Certificate is sought;

 

In (d) I don`t see any mention of a particular type of aircraft other than; 'for the Aeroplane Group in which the Pilot Certificate is sought; If the pilot certificate is being sought for a 95-10 aircraft (Single Place) how can there be any dual training with the instructor in that aircraft.

 

(g) satisfactorily completed a flight test with an approved RAAus CFI or on request by the CFI or the Operations Manager, a RAAus Pilot Examiner.

 

In (g) I don`t see anything that specifically states the flight test must be in a two-place aircraft.

 

 

 

Regardless of the wording of the Ops manual or the instruction given by an RA-Aus approved instructor, in a two-place aircraft, once someone goes flying in a 95-10 aircraft, they are on their own and the outcome of the flight depends entirely on how they handle the situation.

 

 

 

Frank,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alf jessup]

Condolences to the family and friends of the lost brother of the air.

 

Always sad to see someone succumb to the hobby we all most love to do.

 

Just shows we are all not infallible and you never know when your time is up.

 

RIP brother of the sky.

 

 

[kasper]

I`ve just had a look at the RA-Aus Ops Manual and copied and pasted from it; Take note it says may!PRIVILEGES OF A STUDENT OR CONVERTING PILOT CERTIFICATE HOLDER 3.

 

A Student or Converting Pilot Certificate holder, or an applicant for a Student or Converting Pilot Certificate, may: (a) undergo dual flight training with an Instructor who is supervised by a Flight Training School or Satellite Flight Training School in accordance with the appropriate syllabus of training provided in the RAAus Syllabus of Flight Training.

 

https://members.raa.asn.au/storage/1-syllabus-of-flight-training-issue-7-v2-single-pages.pdf

 

PILOT CERTIFICATE - GROUP A or B REQUIREMENTS FOR ISSUE - GROUP A or B.

 

(d) have undergone ground and flight training in accordance with the RAAus Syllabus of Flight Training (published separately), for the Aeroplane Group in which the Pilot Certificate is sought;

 

In (d) I don`t see any mention of a particular type of aircraft other than; 'for the Aeroplane Group in which the Pilot Certificate is sought; If the pilot certificate is being sought for a 95-10 aircraft (Single Place) how can there be any dual training with the instructor in that aircraft.

 

(g) satisfactorily completed a flight test with an approved RAAus CFI or on request by the CFI or the Operations Manager, a RAAus Pilot Examiner.

 

In (g) I don`t see anything that specifically states the flight test must be in a two-place aircraft.

 

 

 

Regardless of the wording of the Ops manual or the instruction given by an RA-Aus approved instructor, in a two-place aircraft, once someone goes flying in a 95-10 aircraft, they are on their own and the outcome of the flight depends entirely on how they handle the situation.

 

 

 

Frank,

 

 

 

95.10 is not an aircraft group for the ops manual. Groups are related to control systems - three axis - weight shift - ppc - combined.

Once your certificate has that group you are cleared to fly all aircraft within that group eg weighshift group b will allow you to go fly a 95.32 or a 95.10 weighshift aircraft.

 

If the student has a restricted pilots certificate ie no cross country - there is nothing stopping a pilot holder flying a single seater and using it. There is nothing other than the willingness of the CFI to also allow solo nav under supervision in a single seater as part of the cross country training ... there are circumstances where a certificate holder on a single seater is also a student under instruction.

 

 

[Teckair]

As a CFI I was told a student who did not yet have a pilot certificate has to do any solo flying in an aircraft the same as they had done their dual training in. And that it was not negotiable.

 

For those who don't believe me ring the OPS manager.

 

I find it astonishing that no one seems to know this.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I've always thought the RAA has always worked on a "need to know" basis, people don't know their rights and the RAA is in no rush to explain them.

 

 

[Teckair]

On the TV there was a photo of the student in front of a Jabiru if he did dual training in that and was allowed to go solo in the Flightstar then that would be a serious problem.

 

 

[facthunter]

Until 1985? there were no dual seat planes suitable for training. I understand the thruster was one of the first available in this country. It has a single seat version, which I imagine would fly much the same. I flew plenty of different planes solo before getting a private licence issued. . Why should RAAus be any different? Some may not be in any hurry to do the final check. I don't know the circumstances here and how much experience this pilot had. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

I don't make the rules up just saying what they are.

 

If you trained in a C150 do you think anyone would let you fly a Tiger Moth?

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes You just get the endorsement on it . After suitable training.. I have a B 727 endorsement on a student licence. To enable me to sit in the seat, and operate to requalify after a period off. Couldn't carry passengers on it though (as you would expect). Nev

 

 

[Gravity]

The legalities of this sad event aside a fellow aviator has slipped the surly bonds of earth for the last time, we each face that day whether it be doing what we love or by natural causes. RIP, gone but not forgotten.

 

 

[M61A1]

As a CFI I was told a student who did not yet have a pilot certificate has to do any solo flying in an aircraft the same as they had done their dual training in. And that it was not negotiable.For those who don't believe me ring the OPS manager.

 

I find it astonishing that no one seems to know this.

The harsh reality is that it doesn't matter what they told you, it matters what is written in their Ops Manual.

There isn't really enough information here to go around suggesting someone has done anything incorrectly, it could have been a medical event for all we know.

 

 

[aro]

As a CFI I was told a student who did not yet have a pilot certificate has to do any solo flying in an aircraft the same as they had done their dual training in.I find it astonishing that no one seems to know this.

How are we supposed to know what you were told?

 

People are "told" a lot of things that are not actually in the rules, because the person telling thinks it's a good idea. So if it's a rule, it is helpful to actually quote the rule rather than what someone told you - even if it was the ops manager.

 

It seems more likely that the ops manual authors took the view that part of authorizing student solo would be evaluating the aircraft type, and that instructors were capable of using their own judgement. There may be instances where 2 types are very similar so additional training is not required. There would also be cases where the type is the same, but there are differences (e.g. equipment) that would require extra training. If an instructor can't be trusted to make the judgement they shouldn't be sending students solo IMHO.

 

In this case, one news report said that the student had passed the test but needed additional hours. Maybe they were clocking up hours for the passenger endorsement?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I don't make the rules up just saying what they are. If you trained in a C150 do you think anyone would let you fly a Tiger Moth?

I can think of some who would; theoretically I could step into a Tiger Moth, or roll up and fly a C210; in either case it's likely there would be a short, entertaining flight, followed by smoke. CASA has a lot to answer for cutting out endorsements, apart from denying training facilities of earnings creating safer pilots. What you are saying Richard may have been true; what Kasper has quoted is current. Something may have slipped through the cracks as RAA manuals were updated, but it doesn't make much sense allowing a student pilot to fly non-compatible airctraft.

Bear in mind this may have nothing to do with the cause of this accident, which could be anything including a medical episode.

 

Nevertheless I think you are making a good point Richard.

 

 

[Teckair]

How are we supposed to know what you were told?People are "told" a lot of things that are not actually in the rules, because the person telling thinks it's a good idea. So if it's a rule, it is helpful to actually quote the rule rather than what someone told you - even if it was the ops manager.

 

It seems more likely that the ops manual authors took the view that part of authorizing student solo would be evaluating the aircraft type, and that instructors were capable of using their own judgement. There may be instances where 2 types are very similar so additional training is not required. There would also be cases where the type is the same, but there are differences (e.g. equipment) that would require extra training. If an instructor can't be trusted to make the judgement they shouldn't be sending students solo IMHO.

 

In this case, one news report said that the student had passed the test but needed additional hours. Maybe they were clocking up hours for the passenger endorsement?

I wasn't told verbally it was in writing which I may still have somewhere but I don't have time to go looking for it.

 

 

[Geoff13]

As a CFI I was told a student who did not yet have a pilot certificate has to do any solo flying in an aircraft the same as they had done their dual training in. And that it was not negotiable.For those who don't believe me ring the OPS manager.

 

I find it astonishing that no one seems to know this.

Being told something does not make it fact. Seeing it in writing would carry far more weight than just being told by someone.

 

I am not having a go at you here Teckair, but it seems absolutely amazing to me that there can any dispute about such an important matter.

 

If someone could point out a reference that may help clarify what to me seems like it should be obvious.

 

I am not an instructor so I do not know the rules, but I must admit that there is no way I would have wanted to solo in a single seater after having done all my training in a Dual place aircraft.

 

Even now I would want to do a lot of homework before flying a single seater for the first time.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I wasn't told verbally it was in writing which I may still have somewhere but I don't have time to go looking for it.

I think you should look for it, because unless there is an obvious cause, this could be very important. I'm not doubting what you are saying, but if someone has been inventive with the paperwork they may have a very heavy responsibility.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes the individual endorsements were eliminated replaced by things like CS prop, Tailwheel. Pressurised, retractable gear which might seem like a simplification process. based on the existence of a type of complexity...

 

Really the endorsement concept is alive still within the RAAus where it's conceptually less required where the basic simple plane(s) are what we are dealing with (most of them). Changing from one plane to an unfamiliar one for some inexperienced pilots can be a major concern . In GA all planes are standard as certified (unless clearly marked EXP). They all fly pretty well, in good condition and loaded within the limits and are more predictable, than the infinitely variable stuff you can find in RAAus..and It's also lighter with less wing loading so the differences in feel etc are exaggerated. the pilot may take a while to get used to the variation from the last plane he/she flew. The more experience the less this effect. If you have flown one plane exclusively for a while the more you might be stuck in a groove and find adjusting more difficult.. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

As a CFI I was told a student who did not yet have a pilot certificate has to do any solo flying in an aircraft the same as they had done their dual training in. And that it was not negotiable.For those who don't believe me ring the OPS manager.

 

I find it astonishing that no one seems to know this.

If your post is prompted by me I’ll clarify - if you have a pilot certificate with no cross country and no radio in group A there is absolutely nothing in the ops manual to stop a pilot getting into a single seat group A aircraft and flying within the limits of the certificate.

In addition you can then use that Single seater under CFI supervision to do the solo navs - you are a student and a certificate holder and you are within the ops manual very clearly.

 

That is what I was talking of in my post to explain how it was actually possible for a solo nab student to be in a single seat aircraft.

 

I’d have to check current ops manual again on student solo flight under supervision before initial certificate issue because I’ve not worried about that for nearly 20 years since I was in that position.

 

 

[M61A1]

I can think of some who would; theoretically I could step into a Tiger Moth, or roll up and fly a C210; in either case it's likely there would be a short, entertaining flight, followed by smoke. CASA has a lot to answer for cutting out endorsements, apart from denying training facilities of earnings creating safer pilots.

The ATA did a fine job in WW2 without endorsements. A bunch of women flying whatever they needed to mostly without anything more than some pilots notes. We really are dumbing down the population.

 

 

[Teckair]

If your post is prompted by me I’ll clarify - if you have a pilot certificate with no cross country and no radio in group A there is absolutely nothing in the ops manual to stop a pilot getting into a single seat group A aircraft and flying within the limits of the certificate. In addition you can then use that Single seater under CFI supervision to do the solo navs - you are a student and a certificate holder and you are within the ops manual very clearly.

That is what I was talking of in my post to explain how it was actually possible for a solo nab student to be in a single seat aircraft.

 

I’d have to check current ops manual again on student solo flight under supervision before initial certificate issue because I’ve not worried about that for nearly 20 years since I was in that position.

No not in response to your post as I agreed with what you said.

 

 

[farri]

As a CFI I was told a student who did not yet have a pilot certificate has to do any solo flying in an aircraft the same as they had done their dual training in. And that it was not negotiable..

Richard, I`m not doubting what you have said but let`s be clear on this; Someone does His/Her training in a FoxBat, LightWing, Jabiru or any other type of AC that`s out there these days, they go solo in the particular aircraft, obtain a pilot certificate then go and legally fly any number of currently registered 95-10 aircraft...Is that correct?

 

Does " Any solo flying" mean, while they are under instruction or any solo flight after obtaining a pilot certificate?

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The ATA did a fine job in WW2 without endorsements. A bunch of women flying whatever they needed to mostly without anything more than some pilots notes. We really are dumbing down the population.

Those women flew seven days a week for years. They were the eqivalent of a CPL with a lot of hours. Yes, they were given the job of flying new prototype with just engineers, and sometimes test pilot notes. Fighter pilots were often put in combat Spits with less than 20 hrs; a lot died. More Beaufighter pilots died in accidents while training in Mildura than in combat. Those were different times with different expectations

 

 

[Camel]

The Raa ops manual states that training takes place in a 95.55 or 95.32 type aircraft complying with legislation.

 

The Casa legislation 95.55 and 95.32 states types for training.

 

See previous forum discussion, some changes since then though !

 

interpretation of CAO 95.55 (Training Aircraft)

 

 

[Teckair]

Richard, I`m not doubting what you have said but let`s be clear on this; Someone does His/Her training in a FoxBat, LightWing, Jabiru or any other type of AC that`s out there these days, they go solo in the particular aircraft, obtain a pilot certificate then go and legally fly any number of currently registered 95-10 aircraft...Is that correct?Does " Any solo flying" mean, while they are under instruction or any solo flight after obtaining a pilot certificate?

 

Frank.

Yes once they have the pilot cert they can fly different types but they still have to have LP or HP as required. There are some who think HP should cover everything which is wrong.

Any solo training prior to receiving the pilot cert has to be done in the same type of plane the dual training was done. And that was not negotiable.