RAA fatality near Emerald

[bull]

No I don't know about the pilot except he is now deceased and appears to have been training in a 95.10. I would be astounded if that was legal. I think it has already been pointed out on this thread it is not.

He had almost completed his training , now this ''training could have already advanced beyond the solo stage and he was doing his navs with the instructor in a two seater ,,,BUT on a lazy sunday would just beetle about the local area in his own 95,10 ,,,nothing illegal about that and I done it myself.....

 

 

[octave]

Octave was talking about ga training

nope

 

 

[fly_tornado]

FT you are a #@$%wit ,,,the engine was a fully reconditioned 503 [not447] with less hrs then your [plastic] tonka truck you play with.......................

still old, a reconditioned engine is never as good as a new one

 

 

[Happyflyer]

He had almost completed his training , now this ''training could have already advanced beyond the solo stage and he was doing his navs with the instructor in a two seater ,,,BUT on a lazy sunday would just beetle about the local area in his own 95,10 ,,,nothing illegal about that and I done it myself.....

Yep. Could have had his Pilot Certificate and started x country endorsement and been authorised by the instructor to do a solo nav in his own single seater.

 

 

[facthunter]

ft with two strokes you are probably right. and to a lesser extent with the others. A crankcase has only a certain life before cracks start. Heads as well A lot of radials failed at the shrink band. on high time engines. IF aero engines were built to last 5,000+ hours they would be much more heavy.. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

air cooled two strokes are about as bad a combination of bad technologies you could think of really.

 

 

[kasper]

air cooled two strokes are about as bad a combination of bad technologies you could think of really.

I’d take a fan cooled two stroke over a free air four stroke of equal power almost any day in an ultralight. Your four stroke is going to:

- cost more

 

- Weigh more

 

- Be subject to more risk in low power / extender decent

 

- Be more critical of engine installation

 

If I’m flying an ultralight that can be put down in a paddock with low risk of damage to airframe I’m happy putting more fuel through a lighter installed engine.

 

That proposition changes if I’m flying anything that stalls near 45knts and needs a very prepared runway but horses for courses - two strokes have their place

 

 

[Gravity]

air cooled two strokes are about as bad a combination of bad technologies you could think of really.

I've got plenty of air cooled two stroke motors and they seem to be fairly reliable but then again my life ain't hanging off my whipper snipper or leaf blower! Good job we have choice these days! -:)

 

 

[facthunter]

They are light powerful and cheap. for the first 3-400 hours if looked after they are fine. How many people are actually tuned ( and sensitive) to an engine?. Look after it and don't climb out over a stand of tall trees each time you take off., If it shakes, splutters , makes funny noises, or runs high EGT's, FIX it. It will rarely fix itself. Just takes a problem with it ready to catch you out at a critical time, later on. In the right environment (an aerodrome with clear spaces all around.) I would happily fly the most awful engine ever made in a historically significant plane , for the shear rare and significant experience it gives..Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

He had almost completed his training , now this ''training could have already advanced beyond the solo stage and he was doing his navs with the instructor in a two seater ,,,BUT on a lazy sunday would just beetle about the local area in his own 95,10 ,,,nothing illegal about that and I done it myself.....

If he had his pilot cert and was trained to fly that type of aircraft you would be correct. He could do his solo xcountry flying in that 95.10 in fact but this did not read that way.

 

 

[Soleair]

air cooled two strokes are about as bad a combination of bad technologies you could think of really.

Better not tell that to the thousands of Rotax 447s & 503s reliably powering many RAA aircraft. Although they have collectively amassed hundreds of thousands of trouble free hours with their awful combination of technologies, they might realise they shouldn't be working and all suddenly stop.

 

 

[facthunter]

They haven't been supported with parts by Rotax for a while now. I don't know how many are regularly flown these days, compared to past times.. Power for weight they are hard to beat. If you know what you are doing , you are a lot safer. Clean, filtered freshly mixed fuel helps. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

They haven't been supported with parts by Rotax for a while now. I don't know how many are regularly flown these days, compared to past times.. Power for weight they are hard to beat. If you know what you are doing , you are a lot safer. Clean, filtered freshly mixed fuel helps. Nev

From a number of posts here, attention to getting the idle jet adjusted correctly/using or adding a mechanical idle stop with a lockable adjuster rather than allowing cable stretch/shrink to come into play would have prevented most of those stoppages.

 

 

[facthunter]

For DC motors (dual carb ) slide there are stops on each....Each cable should have the same amount of slack so they move off idle at the same time. The 912 set up has a spring to OPEN (Fail safe). Often to get it right to idle position you have to really pull on the throttle to fully close it, but this is the 4 stroke motor that doesn't tend to stall much. The sinking floats would not help, but that's supposed to be rectified

 

2 stroke motors that have excessive piston clearances have more erratic idle. Air leaks (Gasket) near the exhaust port will lean it out.. They are not in a particularly high state of tune. I have seen some that wouldn't be fit to power a mower.. Years ago. turn them over and feel hardly any compression. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Better not tell that to the thousands of Rotax 447s & 503s reliably powering many RAA aircraft. Although they have collectively amassed hundreds of thousands of trouble free hours with their awful combination of technologies, they might realise they shouldn't be working and all suddenly stop.

they are getting old and haven't been manufactured for over a decade, new doesn't compare to a 2 decade old power plant.

 

 

[Soleair]

they are getting old and haven't been manufactured for over a decade, new doesn't compare to a 2 decade old power plant.

FT, in the statement you made which I quoted in post #186, you made no mention of the age of these engines. You made a bald generalisation regarding air cooling & 2-stroke technology per se being "bad".

 

That was the self-evidently - and demonstrably - misguided assertion to which I was replying.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

in the context that the idea isn't so bad when its new but as it gets older it becomes a greater and greater liability.

 

 

[M61A1]

Carburetted 912s are 1930s technology, the current rotary valve two strokes otherwise stopped being used in the late 60s.

 

Lycoming themselves have worked out that with some parts, used is "proven". They figure that if a new part hasn't failed in a certain number of cycles it's good, so to rebuild an engine with those parts is desirable.

 

 

[facthunter]

Rotary valved two strokes were the thing for a while and then reed valves took over. I don't like reed valves in an aero application. The rotary valved 582 is weirdly lubricated in the drive for the disc valves and probably costly for a small (if any) advantage . Hang over from the skidoo application where a broader band of power needed? A properly tuned piston ported design would be OK where it's operating in a narrow RPM range where the power is needed.. Anyhow the 582 is all there is from Rotax... Someone could probably manufacture something better but the attitude to TWO strokes is such that there is a risk going down that track.. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Canadians are starting to replace 503s and 582s with 600 ace motors

 

 

 

[Gravity]

Interesting little motor, four stroke makes sense for reliability, next Rotax's will make a Sooby-Doo ultralight ski plane

 

 

[Teckair]

Nothing wrong with 2 strokes, the real issue here is people should not die when the motor stops.

 

 

[M61A1]

Rotary valved two strokes were the thing for a while and then reed valves took over. I don't like reed valves in an aero application. The rotary valved 582 is weirdly lubricated in the drive for the disc valves and probably costly for a small (if any) advantage . Hang over from the skidoo application where a broader band of power needed? A properly tuned piston ported design would be OK where it's operating in a narrow RPM range where the power is needed.. Anyhow the 582 is all there is from Rotax... Someone could probably manufacture something better but the attitude to TWO strokes is such that there is a risk going down that track.. Nev

My only beef with Rotax two strokes is that they are a $1k engine and are sold for close to $10k. The 912 is worse for excess cost. Nothing special about them.

 

 

[Gravity]

I was chatting to a guy recently who deals with the CTLS he mentioned that Rotax's now had around 80% of the 100HP range of engines, seems impressive.

 

 

[farri]

Didn`t know about the Rotax 600 Ace! Did a quick internet search; Application: Snow.

 

Rotax 600 ACE - BRP-Rotax

 

Frank.