Quicksilver GT500 EFATO analysis

[fly_tornado]

Brian Carpenter of Rainbow aviation is doing some analysis of a EFATO with a Quicksilver GT500

 

 

 

[farri]

I did a couple of hours in the back seat of a Quicksilver GT 500 with the owner, a guy I instructed in the Drifter when he was doing nav with me.

 

When I was instructing I went through 4 Rotax 582 grey head engines on my Drifter; with a student on board, I had 3 engine failures just after take-off, not all with the same student or engine, though.

 

The first failure I was able to land back on the strip ahead of me; the second failure, up wind, past the end of the strip, I landed straight ahead in an adjoining paddock; the third failure, up wind, past the end of the strip, at around 250` agl, I had to do a 90 degree, right, descending turn and land in an adjoining paddock...The result of the 3 engine failures` was, no injuries to student or myself, aircraft damage; a broken tail wheel, due to the rough paddock... I eventually flew the Drifter out of that paddock.

 

In the video, at approximately 7.50 the guy in the front seat pulls back on the control yoke and the aircraft lifts off.

 

At approximately 8.03 the engine starts to lose power and begins to sink and the guy in the front seat is still holding back on the control yoke.

 

At approximately 8.07 the guy in the front seat pulls back on the control yoke and the aircraft crashes on the runway.

 

At this stage, I point out that`s how it appears to me and if I `m, correct, there was no attempt to lower the nose of the aircraft, causing it to stall, therefore, the accident was caused by the aircraft stalling and not the engine failure; I believe if the nose of the aircraft had been lowered as soon as the engine started to fail, a satisfactory landing could have been carried out.

 

Frank,

 

Ps, The guy who owned the Quicksilver I spoke about was fatally injured when he hit a powerline attempting to buzz his wife and children, driving on the highway.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Yep...he didnt stick the nose down...just run out of speed...also probably hauled it off and started climbing at minima also he was 2 up so made it even worse...then of course he has pulled back on the stick. No inertia...I alway climb out at 60kts or a little more. Gives you some extra breathing space if the engine quits to get the nose down and maintain some speed

 

 

[kasper]

Never found the GT500 a difficult aircraft and agree with above on cause of crash being pilot error- no speed gain after liftoff and full back stick from start of power failure to inevitable crash.

 

And I’d hazard a guess as the engine stoppage cause - California- winter - 45min cooldown between flight - no effective engine heat up - cold seizure.

 

Also from the audio I’d hazard the instructor is not a dyed in the wool two stroke man - any student of mine that left the engine chattering away on the gearbox on startup for that long would earn a swift whack to the side of the head long before he could run it that long. Don’t care if it was a student owner of the aircraft it’s my butt in the backseat and instructor should have failed him on both engine handling on start up and warming a water cooled two stroke properly.

 

Shared blame in my opinion

 

 

[Downunder]

Yep...he didnt stick the nose down...just run out of speed...also probably hauled it off and started climbing at minima also he was 2 up so made it even worse...then of course he has pulled back on the stick. No inertia...I alway climb out at 60kts or a little more. Gives you some extra breathing space if the engine quits to get the nose down and maintain some speed

First thing I was taught in RAA was "immediate nose down, maintain airspeed" and I think in all BFR"s this has been checked.

 

I was at a club safety meeting a few years ago and the (GA) CFI stood up and said to all and sundry "What's the first thing you do on engine failure?" .

 

Answer "Use momentum to climb".......

 

I can really see problems with GA pilots coming over to RAA aircraft....

 

Hit the "I" icon in the top, right of vid and cast your vote!

 

 

[Happyflyer]

First thing I was taught in RAA was "immediate nose down, maintain airspeed" and I think in all BFR"s this has been checked.I was at a club safety meeting a few years ago and the (GA) CFI stood up and said to all and sundry "What's the first thing you do on engine failure?" .

Answer "Use momentum to climb".......

 

I can really see problems with GA pilots coming over to RAA aircraft....

 

Hit the "I" icon in the top, right of vid and cast your vote!

It really deplaneds if you’re climbing or cruising. Why would you put your nose down immediately if you were doing 100 + knots in your J230 for example? Quicksilver or Drifter probably different, never flown one. All part of knowing your aircraft.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

It really deplaneds if you’re climbing or cruising. Why would you put your nose down immediately if you were doing 100 + knots in your J230 for example? Quicksilver or Drifter probably different, never flown one. All part of knowing your aircraft.

Yep exactly. Depends on what’s happening.

 

I’d agree that if the noise stops while you are at 100knots in the cruise you’d be wrong to nose over. The response is climb to best glide speed ( which in a jab 230 is about 80 knots) And if you were at Vtoss on climb and the noise stopped then you gotta get the nose over real quick.

 

Depending on what situation he was talking about that comment by the GA pilot is probably completely correct.

 

 

[alf jessup]

I did a couple of hours in the back seat of a Quicksilver GT 500 with the owner, a guy I instructed in the Drifter when he was doing nav with me.When I was instructing I went through 4 Rotax 582 grey head engines on my Drifter; with a student on board, I had 3 engine failures just after take-off, not all with the same student or engine, though.

 

The first failure I was able to land back on the strip ahead of me; the second failure, up wind, past the end of the strip, I landed straight ahead in an adjoining paddock; the third failure, up wind, past the end of the strip, at around 250` agl, I had to do a 90 degree, right, descending turn and land in an adjoining paddock...The result of the 3 engine failures` was, no injuries to student or myself, aircraft damage; a broken tail wheel, due to the rough paddock... I eventually flew the Drifter out of that paddock.

 

In the video, at approximately 7.50 the guy in the front seat pulls back on the control yoke and the aircraft lifts off.

 

At approximately 8.03 the engine starts to lose power and begins to sink and the guy in the front seat is still holding back on the control yoke.

 

At approximately 8.07 the guy in the front seat pulls back on the control yoke and the aircraft crashes on the runway.

 

At this stage, I point out that`s how it appears to me and if I `m, correct, there was no attempt to lower the nose of the aircraft, causing it to stall, therefore, the accident was caused by the aircraft stalling and not the engine failure; I believe if the nose of the aircraft had been lowered as soon as the engine started to fail, a satisfactory landing could have been carried out.

 

Frank,

 

Ps, The guy who owned the Quicksilver I spoke about was fatally injured when he hit a powerline attempting to buzz his wife and children, driving on the highway.

Your spot on Frank,

My take on it is in the 2 seconds of WTF is happening was enough to dissipate the airspeed and as per human nature pull back on the stick cause the grounds coming up at me

 

Hard to do to push it over when the grounds coming at you

 

I think a thorough brief on EFATO could save the day as it is fresh in your mind prior to take off

 

Engine fails push forward and maintain airspeed

 

I say it out loud every time I take off as do I full power is attained, airspeed is alive & T’s & P’s are ok

 

Sad fact is until it happens you never really know how you will react, the WTF moment can catch you out

 

Alf

 

 

[farri]

Your spot on Frank, My take on it is in the 2 seconds of WTF is happening was enough to dissipate the airspeed and as per human nature pull back on the stick cause the Alf

G`Day Alf! With the length of runway still ahead of them I`d also say, they should have been climbing at lower angle, with a higher airspeed.

 

Frank.

 

 

[alf jessup]

G`Day Alf! With the length of runway still ahead of them I`d also say, they should have been climbing at lower angle, with a higher airspeed.Frank.

True Frank

But remember plenty of people fly knowing full well their engine is going to keep going and never fail

 

 

[Geoff13]

G`Day Alf! With the length of runway still ahead of them I`d also say, they should have been climbing at lower angle, with a higher airspeed.Frank.

I simply cannot disagree with this comment. With all the runway we have at Caboolture, I have still not been able to bring myself to climb out a best rate of climb in my plane which is 54 knots.

Even at 65knots, I am at 500' at the cross runways. I just cant bring myself to pull the nose that high whilst so close to the ground. At 54 knots it feels like she is standing on her tail and I just can't do it that close to the ground. I always wonder if the fan stop at that steep angle, will I have time to get the nose over before it is to late.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I simply cannot disagree with this comment. With all the runway we have at Caboolture, I have still not been able to bring myself to climb out a best rate of climb in my plane which is 54 knots. Even at 65knots, I am at 500' at the cross runways. I just cant bring myself to pull the nose that high whilst so close to the ground. At 54 knots it feels like she is standing on her tail and I just can't do it that close to the ground. I always wonder if the fan stop at that steep angle, will I have time to get the nose over before it is to late.

Why not try it above 3000ft?

 

 

[Geoff13]

Why not try it above 3000ft?

I have done and to be honest I always feel that if I allowed for 2-3 seconds reaction time, it would be sliding back down its tail before I could respond.

So normally I let her take of then climb at about 65knots which feels comfortable to me and still give 1000 fpm.

 

65 knots is maximum flap speed so it is a bit of a balancing act for the first 300'

 

 

[farri]

With all the runway we have at Caboolture, I have still not been able to bring myself to climb out a best rate of climb in my plane which is 54 knots.

Geoff, There was Zenith CH 701 based here on our property for 10 years that I often flew; the 701 is a STOL aircraft and I could almost stand it on it`s tail at lift-off if I wanted to but I always kept the nose down with an airspeed that I could simply land without stalling if the engine suddenly quit, until I got to a height that I considered safe enough to use it`s STOL performance.

 

The best rate of climb is the rate that keeps you safest; as we saw in the video, it`s all over extremely quickly.

 

Frank,

 

Ps, I test flew a SkyDart at Caboolture for a guy I instructed who was wanting to buy it and he did.

 

 

[rollerball]

Must agree with the comments made above - no appreciation of how to idle a 582 which should be at 2500-3000 rpm and until 65-70 degrees shows on the water temp gauge before take off. Also whatever aircraft you fly you always hold the nose down to gain a safe airspeed before starting to climb. The student did neither of the above. Also, he doesn't seem to have been briefed, or at least wasn't current, on what to do should he get a EFATO. The accident in the video was the easiest EFATO to deal with - plenty of height and plenty of runway ahead - so it was a travesty in the first place that anyone was hurt and secondly that the aircraft was damaged. My guess is that he'd never been made to do runway hops which I think are an essential part of training if you're at a field with a long enough runway. Need to take a leaf from the glider guys' book who are trained at an early stage to deal with cable breaks.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I simply cannot disagree with this comment. With all the runway we have at Caboolture, I have still not been able to bring myself to climb out a best rate of climb in my plane which is 54 knots.Even at 65knots, I am at 500' at the cross runways. I just cant bring myself to pull the nose that high whilst so close to the ground. At 54 knots it feels like she is standing on her tail and I just can't do it that close to the ground. I always wonder if the fan stop at that steep angle, will I have time to get the nose over before it is to late.

There's nothing wrong with that practically.

That climb angle will allow you to clear obstacles at the end of a short runway, or where there are obstacles.

 

I was interested to read some of the comments lately about continuing to "climb for altitude" if the engine quits. That might work if the complete process is ingrained into your subconscious, but if it isn't, the seconds, instead of fractions of seconds required to remember to push over the top and then settle at glide speed, could cause you to stuff up, whereas a more natural nose drop to glide speed is mush easier to execute.

 

The Quicksilver EFATO failure is a good example of how quick you have to be to catch it.

 

 

[Hargraves]

Airspeed, Options, Airspeed, Options, Airspeed, Options, Airspeed,

 

A thorugh heat soak via a warmup then shutdown, wait five mins then operations, or a long taxi and wait, never on slow idle is the way I operated my first GT500 and will operate my second one as well, this accident was caused on the video evidence provided by pilot and instructor error in my opinion, i,m glad it was,nt worse. cheers Hargraves

 

 

[phantomphixer]

Yep exactly. Depends on what’s happening.I’d agree that if the noise stops while you are at 100knots in the cruise you’d be wrong to nose over. The response is climb to best glide speed ( which in a jab 230 is about 80 knots) And if you were at Vtoss on climb and the noise stopped then you gotta get the nose over real quick.

Depending on what situation he was talking about that comment by the GA pilot is probably completely correct.

Agreed. At about 100kts plus in a J230, if the noise stops, you pull the nose up to achieve two things. A hundred feet or so of insurance and a best glide speed of 65kts, anticipate the 65kts and nose over for a gentle glide working out which of your paddocks you saw will be the best.

 

 

[farri]

A while back Rodney Stiff flew a Jabiru to our property here at Deeral and took me flying while he was here; we were doing just over 100 kts and to get to 60 kts. hold it and maintain altitude we had to reduce power and get the nose up quite high...For me to get 60 kts and maintain that speed at straight and level flight, with my Drifter, I need to hold the nose down and apply power well above what I need to cruise at 50 kts.

 

My Drifter stalls, power off, at 36 kts at MTOW; on final approach, on an average day I come in with nothing under 50 kts. Flying solo, power off stall is 32 kts IAS so I have 18 kts to play with, before wind shear...To maintain 50 IAS I need to point the nose at the ground at an angle that would frighten most LSA pilots, level off as close to the ground as needed at the time and finally land it.

 

Best glide speed is 43 IAS so cruising solo at 50 IAS and the engine stops suddenly, from best glide speed, I now have 11 kts to play with, even with enough altitude to be able to zoom, maneuvering speed is 60 IAS... There`s no real advantage in trying to zoom in most high-drag, low-momentum rag and tube Ultralights and in fact, it could be disastrous for some.

 

Some guys say that if the engine suddenly stops on an Ultralight, they were taught to "immediately shove the stick forward and get the nose down", to me that is a very ambiguous comment, there`s been no mention of IAS and the altitude of the AC at the moment the engine stops.

 

Flying at anything above 500` agl with 50 IAS, I only need to lower the nose enough to maintain the speed I want and need, even though airspeed can decrease fast, from 50 IAS I need to slow down to get to best glide speed of 43 kts and I want to stay in the air for as long as possible...Just shoving the stick forward and getting the nose down can lose valuable hight required to make it to the landing site.

 

In my opinion, Training for high-drag, low-momentum Ultralights should be done in those types of aircraft.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Bats]

Horses for courses comes to mind and I quite agree with your last line, Frank.

 

I've had instructors push various methods at different times, but left to myself, I find the easiest approach in LSA type aircraft is to keep the nose up and as the asi winds down to best glide, gradually lower the nose and trim for the desired speed. That pretty much caters for the inevitable what the hell delay and minimises control input. Short of something like an RV at naughty feet over the beach, I cannot see any advantage to zooming for height and if anything the changes in attitude will erode the margin of potential energy more than a gentler, smoother transition. The "shove the stick forward" method is to my mind only appropriate when faced with an EFATO situation, ie nose up and close to the ground. In Drifters and similar, it is crucial to prevent too much speed being lost and compensates for trim changes, but even in something like a Tecnam, climb and best glide speeds are similar and delaying lowering the nose is only going to result in you falling behind the desired speed and descent profile.

 

 

[M61A1]

I don't know why it should take a couple of seconds to realise you are having a power failure, especially on take off. Both the Drifter and the GT500 have a high thrust line, and as the power reduces they will tend to pitch up. As the power reduces this is felt through the seat of your pants in a big way and usually the stick is coming forward to maintain the airspeed required. Even my backseater who isn't pilot, will be yelling "what's going on" if I decide to ease the power and raise the nose just for the fun of it. It just becomes second nature in a very short while.

 

My only Drifter engine fail ( climbing out at around 300') was so benign that just as we were rolling to a stop in a paddock, she asked "why are we landing here?"

 

 

[WayneL]

Short of something like an RV at naughty feet over the beach,

Or a Reno gold class Mustang blowing an engine while fanging down the back straight...now That's something to see!

Wayne

 

 

[farri]

I quite agree with your last line, Frank..

Well, I guess that`s something!...My point in post #19 was to show the difference between an LSA (Jabiru) and a rag and tube, high-drag, low-momentum AC, in that case, my WB Drifter, therefore, why training to fly Ultralights shouldn`t be done in high-performance LSA.

 

In post #19, I gave IAS figures but in fact, in my WB Drifter, I don`t fly figures, I don`t need any instruments to know what the AC is telling me, the instruments are there to confirm what I know is happening, I fly the aircraft.

 

Frank,

 

Ps, Not for a second am I recommending anyone fly without instruments or not use them.

 

 

[Yenn]

Drifters must be good to fly.

 

I remember a drifter arriving at a get together well after dark. The pilot wouldn’t have been able to see any instruments, he did complain that all the assembled car lights to illuminate the strip only tended to blind him.

 

 

[shafs64]

Hi panicked and wrecked a good plane. but lucky no one was killed