Guest High Plains Drifter Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Page 39 of December Flight Safety Australia - Headline reads... Ever had a CLOSE CALL ? picture shows an airliner head on to a GA aircraft. CASA will pay you $500 to write about a REAL LIFE incident that you've been involved in. Looks like the hype and hysteria is being ramped up to get pilots to accept that FREE ADSB thingy - and those Billion dollar contracts. HPD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest disperse Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 This ADSB thingy really gets your goolies HPD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 It should get on all our goolies Disperse it can only end in tears for all Rec Flyer's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Hmmm..I've got a couple of real ones.....$500.......hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Yep, I could come up with 1 or 3 as well. Dont think ADS-B or anything else of its ilk would have saved me either... ADS-B = :;)1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest High Plains Drifter Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 In over twenty years of flying I've had plenty of SEE and AVIOD situations. (thats where I see another aircraft, then manouver to aviod - no problemo ) I am yet to have a near miss - if I had several near miss situations I would ask myself the question ...what is it that I am doing wrong. The regulaters would probably ask the same question. HPD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 In over twenty years of flying I've had plenty of SEE and AVIOD situations. (thats where I see another aircraft, then manouver to aviod - no problemo ) I am yet to have a near miss - if I had several near miss situations I would ask myself the question ...what is it that I am doing wrong. The regulaters would probably ask the same question. HPD When you are flying a 60knot trike, and a 500knot Tornado appears 100' directly beneath, you get very little "see", and absolutely zero chance to "avoid". You do however get plenty of incentive to do your laundry later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 The 2 occasions I've had anything like a near miss were in a CTZ under radar 'control'. I'll take a lot of convincing that we need 'control' of the kind ASA envisage using ADSB. It's all being driven by the big-end-of-town who clearly never look outside, neither do they believe their TCAS readout.....because not everyone uses current Mode C TXP. Fact is that RPT wants a controller in MB or BN to hold their hand...just like in the good old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flyer40 Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 Flight Safety magazine has been offering money for stories since long before ADSB came onto the scene. The concept is no different to what we do here. We share our close calls so others can learn from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted December 18, 2007 Share Posted December 18, 2007 I didn't think eagles flew at 4000agl....let me assure you, they do !!!:;)6: Interesting manoeuvre to get out of its way...intertwined with some fairly choice words. :big_grin: ADS-B for the birds maybe ?? regards Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Browng my OH used to fly Tornados, and I can assure you that the Tornado pilots would have had you sighted a fair way out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Browng my OH used to fly Tornados, and I can assure you that the Tornado pilots would have had you sighted a fair way out! Not according to the CAA incident report. The Tornado pilot declared an 'incident', and didn't see me until very very late. If it had been anything but a trike he would have picked me up on his radar, but the trike had virtually zero radar signature, one reason why most trikes in the UK now have alloy radar reflectors fitted. Nobody was found at fault in this incident, which just goes to show that even if you do everything right, stuff happens. EDIT - I was using a radio, and had just made 5 mile inbound contact with Sywell Information on 122.7 when the incident happened. One thing that came out in the report was that the only civilian frequency he would have been monitoring (if any) would be the area frequency, so I might as well have been non-radio. Another example of why compulsory radio is not the answer some claim it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Browng, fair enough - a trike would have been very difficult to pick up. Maybe the Tornado pilot would have been better off flying lower! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 .......which just goes to show that even if you do everything right, stuff happens........Another example of why compulsory radio is not the answer some claim it to be. As was rightly identified, even when everything is done right stuff can still happen..... What wasnt said is "though much less often than when everything isnt done right, and all possible aids arent used or fitted. In determining the usefulness of radio as an aid vs say ADSB as an aid, I'll have some of the former as generally it pays its way and not much of the latter cause I dont think it will, and I dont trust the powers that be to not use it for other things which will hurt my wallet! even though from a technology perspective I find it interesting. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 As was rightly identified, even when everything is done right stuff can still happen..... What wasnt said is "though much less often than when everything isnt done right, and all possible aids arent used or fitted. In determining the usefulness of radio as an aid vs say ADSB as an aid, I'll have some of the former as generally it pays its way and not much of the latter cause I dont think it will, and I dont trust the powers that be to not use it for other things which will hurt my wallet! even though from a technology perspective I find it interesting. Andy Andy we shouldn't take this thread too far off topic, but I wasn't suggesting that radio was of no use in reducing risk, that would be both inaccurate and foolish. Its just that it can become all too easy to depend on it. I have seen too many people relax their basic airmanship in direct proportion to the amount of knobs on their panel, to assume that I will be seen when I should be . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Not according to the CAA incident report. The Tornado pilot declared an 'incident', and didn't see me until very very late. If it had been anything but a trike he would have picked me up on his radar, but the trike had virtually zero radar signature, one reason why most trikes in the UK now have alloy radar reflectors fitted. In my experience, trikes do have a significant radar signature. After transits through Waddington MATZ (military CTAF for Aussi readers), they could still see me over my home airstrip > 60nm away and hence were still providing a FIS. The signature was sufficient for them to tell me my mate in a 2nd trike was half a mile behind. Hence none of the many UK trikers I know have "reflectors" fitted. As an aside, unless the Tornado was an F3 wouldn't it only have had ground radar anyway (question for Mazda's OH perhaps) ? Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 In my experience, trikes do have a significant radar signature. After transits through Waddington MATZ (military CTAF for Aussi readers), they could still see me over my home airstrip > 60nm away and hence were still providing a FIS. The signature was sufficient for them to tell me my mate in a 2nd trike was half a mile behind. Hence none of the many UK trikers I know have "reflectors" fitted.As an aside, unless the Tornado was an F3 wouldn't it only have had ground radar anyway (question for Mazda's OH perhaps) ? Cheers John John, I am happy to accept that modern trikes have a radar signature, but I can only tell you what happened, and what the report stated. This was back in the early 80's when trikes were much simpler machines than they now are. It is possible that I am remembering the details of the report incorrectly, and it was the area radar that did not pick me up, and therefore could not advise him of the traffic, it was around 25 years ago after all. The radar reflectors consisted of aluminum foil (like a space blanket), either on the inside of the pod wall, (if fitted, which was rare), or even inside the wing. It occurred on a flight from Top Farm in Northants, to Sywell. You may dissect to your hearts content, but I was actually there, and it wasn't funny at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I was intrigued because I flew trikes for 10 years in the UK and had never heard of radar reflectors. I apologise if my previous response appeared to downplay the event in any way - it was not my intention to treat it as funny. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hihosland Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 I don't know about trikes and radar however around 6 years ago I was in the Aerochute at 4000 ft and 25nautical from Melbourne and talking to Melbourne radar who could not see me on his equipment. Davidh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Tornados do have good air to air doppler radar but apparently it isn't reliable if the other aircraft is very slow. The Tonka pilot SHOULD have seen you though - it isn't good that he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 Tornados do have good air to air doppler radar but apparently it isn't reliable if the other aircraft is very slow.The Tonka pilot SHOULD have seen you though - it isn't good that he didn't. Thanks Mazda, I was beginning to doubt my own recollection there regarding the radar. As I said, nobody was found at fault, at least in the civilian report, I have no idea what the RAF made of it though, not being privy to their internal report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted December 19, 2007 Share Posted December 19, 2007 While I was in the UK in the late 70's,( I think??), a Piper Pawnee ag aircraft was splatted by a low flying Tornado as he pulled up at the end of a spray run. Now that's really bad luck! Even TCAS would be unable to warn of such a small, but sharp, change in altitude. cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 There was also a collision between a Tornado & a Jetranger doing pipeline inspections about 15 years ago. I found the accident report at http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/2_1994_zg_754_and_g_bhyw.cfm Quite an interesting and sobering read. It mentions that the Tornado radar "isn't intended to be used for acquiring or warning of the presence of other aircraft" but not that it can't do so. Also that there was only a 5 to 7 SECOND window where the pilots might have been able to see each other Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browng Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 John, do you know how far that AAIB online database goes back?, or what criteria a report requires to be listed? I can understand why my Tornado 'incident' is not there, as there was no actual accident, but an EFATO I had (where I hit an 11kv power line and took out the power for the entire airfield and adjacent village) is also not there, in spite of the fact that I have a copy of the AAIB report and its reference number (Ref: EWIG89108102), in front of me right now. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted December 20, 2007 Share Posted December 20, 2007 The monthly bulletins only seem to go back to 96 but cover pretty much every accident or incident reported to the AAIB. There are loads of "ran off runway, nobody hurt, plane damaged" type incidents typically reported by the pilot and presumably not investigated by the AAIB. Curiously though I have failed to find a couple of reports which I'm positive occurred since 96. By the sounds of your accident it certainly should be there - bare in mind that the entries in the monthly bulletins are when the report was published not the date of the accident. Taking an example I was involved in http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_501463.pdf was reported in the March 2000 bulletin but the accident was in June the previous year. There are also a few formal reports which are older - typically these are for major airliner accidents. There a few links that are "under construction" so maybe its still work in progress and all the achives will be added. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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