Engine Failure Does Not Cause A Fatal Accident In An Ultralight Aircraft!

[Gravity]

Ex

 

RAA was never intended for cross-country flying in complex airspace regulated areas.For that, you get a PPL.

If someone decided he wanted to go touring up the east coast of Australia, but either didn't do his homework on the Nav requirements, or decided to take the cheap route of getting a Recreational Pilot Certificate and bluffing his way through the airspace rules, that's his own problem.

 

What is clouding the issue, is perhaps one or two FTFs pushing for exemption from D Class on financial grounds to allow them to train for both RPC and PPL.

 

Sure the end result looks silly, but there's some logic in allowing training the way it's done The students then go outside that area with all the other RPC pilots, so they do get a saving in travel time and cost if they live in the City.

 

Have a look at a few threads on this site where flight planning, nav radio are discussed, and you'll see the standard of Certificate pilots generally; you do need that PPL training, and particularly the culture of using that training; it is different.

 

I'm not suggesting those who have been trained at places like Camden fall short; just that if someone wants to stir it up, the more likely action is an internal "Who the hell authorised these people to train RA pilots in this airpace", followed by a cancellation, rather than an opening up of D Class to all comers.

 

A few RA people have commented on here that they are "forced" over tiger country of dangerous conditions by not being allowed to fly in these prohibited areas. They choose to risk their lives and do it instead of flight planning around it. Even with a PPL, one of things you soon learn when cross-country flying is that there are MANY obstacles to what looks like a carefree point to point flight.

Excellent post you saved me the time to say pretty much the same thing. I equate this 'right' that some RAA drivers demand as to the LCC's that cruise our skies. The traveling public where screaming that fares where too expensive which they mostly where so the LCC service was invented for want of a better word. BUT since the introduction of super cheap NO FRILL fares everyone is now expecting. Full Service flight for the same ultra low money! I've spent years at the ATPL level & used to hear it all the time!! Simple you want the best you pay for it, user pays is the way things are these days!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Reaper Spins While Pilot Runs Checklist - AVweb flash ArticleCould they have been distracted, like the above recent event?

A number almost certainly are, possibly in circuit turns where they can be distracted by unfinished checks, or radio transmissions. Others are just being too slow to react;100ths of seconds turns into 1,2,3 seconds in the disbelief cycle; others mis-apply controls - in one fatality an amphib was seen to climb steeply before spinning in from altitude.

 

 

[coljones]

There will be no obligation on anyone to fly into controlled airspace so there will be no requirement on anyone to do training and get endorsed on CTA Access. The additional costs to do the training and endorsement will be a cost on the pilot. There might be a subsidy by the instructors (who are, in the main, poorly remunerated). There will be no costs on RAA other than keeping track.

 

There are RAA planes that can and do enter controlled airspace. These are currently flown by RAA pilots who are also GA pilots with CTA endos (or operation under an exemption).

 

Roll on RAA CTA Access!!!!!!! THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE - WE SHOULD STOP PRESUMING THAT IT SHOULD BE.

 

 

[facthunter]

Would you like to put money on it Col? People who use controlled airspace all the time are fine. It's a fair bit of stuff to keep on top of if you only do it occasionally, and the radio work for one would want to improve vastly if people are not to get in the Pooh. IF it happens and there are incidents watch for the massive backlash.. How does Australia tell ICAO they have non compliant aircraft and non licenced pilots in their controlled airspace? Special VFR clearances across zones like Williamtown Coastal and into specific aerodromes are all you want.. Keep it something anyone can do. . That's my advice and it has been for years.. Not based on anything I got out of a book somewhere either. RAAus should look after it's "Core" properly Not empire build . for the Ego of it's managers, to the detriment of it's base. Nev

 

 

[Gravity]

Would you like to put money on it Col? People who use controlled airspace all the time are fine. It's a fair bit of stuff to keep on top of if you only do it occasionally, and the radio work for one would want to improve vastly if people are not to get in the Pooh. IF it happens and there are incidents watch for the massive backlash.. How does Australia tell ICAO they have non compliant aircraft and non licenced pilots in their controlled airspace? Special VFR clearances across zones like Williamtown Coastal and into specific aerodromes are all you want.. Keep it something anyone can do. . That's my advice and it has been for years.. Not based on anything I got out of a book somewhere either. RAAus should look after it's "Core" properly Not empire build . for the Ego of it's managers, to the detriment of it's base. Nev

I tend to agree there Nev but the RAA fraternity can always try, but we are talking about CASA here who give us commercial & GA drivers a very hard time so I wish them all the best -:)

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Nev. I agree with your sentiments but the RPL is not ICAO recognised and RAAus aircraft can fly in CTA now, so you can’t really use those arguments.

 

I agree RAAus should stick to its core instead of moving into GA areas. Lobby for class G corridors through CTA and military airspace instead.

 

 

[facthunter]

The arguments are still valid as I feel we will find out.. RPL has restrictions so does the Certificate which operates under an exemption/ dispensation or whatever. the RPL is a disappointment and a distraction . for most it won't do much.. We will see . When the RAAus does it's existing job well (It's not all their fault) they might look for new fields but why was CTA access the FIRST Priority? Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

As far as CTA access is concerned, the question is not whether it could be done, because we all know that it could be, but whether or not the regulators can be trusted to do it right, and not screw over everyone in the process. I think that the answer there is that it’s highly unlikely.

 

 

[turboplanner]

As far as CTA access is concerned, the question is not whether it could be done, because we all know that it could be, but whether or not the regulators can be trusted to do it right, and not screw over everyone in the process. I think that the answer there is that it’s highly unlikely.

As someone else already mentioned, CASA needs to discharge its ICAO obligations.

It may be that a training and Endorsement option can be added, but this would still add about the same training and cost as a PPL; it would be virtually impossible to allow it at a lower standard of training and competence.

 

 

[SDQDI]

(a) I notice the stirring stick(b) This is very different flying to what you do; a very high percentage of it it swivelling eyeballs, and instinctively knowing what action to take to avoid fast moving aircraft flown by the upper end of the Pilot pecking order, including instantly reacting to things like radio advice of a missed approach at 2 miles dme on the 125 radial at 300 knots, and know instantly where you are in relation to that flight path.

The currency required for this is probably about a flight very week or so if you want to be safe.

 

This would also be one of the areas where your PL Insurance needs to cover potentially multiple fatalities in case a Dash 8 connects with you and goes down.

 

It's definitely a different type of flying, even compared to an RA field with six in the circuit.

 

Following on from that, if the RAA discussions produce anything, the conditions are likely to push up prices compared to the RA situation now.

Thanks for the reply Turbs this thread has gone crazy fast!

 

RPT and Commercial aircraft may be letting down in this space at high speed; very hard to see something like a Jab or Drifter or for than matter any 4 seat GA aircraft below you.

My main reason for stirring was to point out what I saw as mild hypocrisy. You were saying that big rpt planes couldn't see little RAA planes in controlled airspace which while true is a bit silly after all those same RAA planes can and do mix it with rpt planes at non controlled airstrips without hitting each other too often so wouldn't controlled airspace with a controller be safer and easier for all concerned?!

 

Hitting a rpt at a non controlled airport doing my own thing is likely to cost my insurance more than if I was in a controlled area doing what I was told (assuming I was there legally of course!)

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks for the reply Turbs this thread has gone crazy fast!My main reason for stirring was to point out what I saw as mild hypocrisy. You were saying that big rpt planes couldn't see little RAA planes in controlled airspace which while true is a bit silly after all those same RAA planes can and do mix it with rpt planes at non controlled airstrips without hitting each other too often so wouldn't controlled airspace with a controller be safer and easier for all concerned?!

This is a forum, not a thesis or a formal document where you would write the base information, then qualify or explain it, which leads to a lot of nit picking.

Yes, RPT planes do mix it with anything at quite a few places, but watching out for the inbound 15:30 flight, each day, and for that flight to be making a noise on the radio is one thing, but repeated, unexpected IFR training, despatching emergency flights, inbound RPT trying to meet schedules is a whole different world. I wasn't planning to list each and every possible difference with the quiet life outside Class D, but you could always go visit one of these locations and do a check for yourself from the ground. An hour or so ought to give you an idea.

 

Hitting a rpt at a non controlled airport doing my own thing is likely to cost my insurance more than if I was in a controlled area doing what I was told (assuming I was there legally of course!)

Quite a few motorists have been hit and killed by the daily train on quiet country crossings, and there is always a remote chance you will get in the way of an RPT outside Class D, so that is at least a consideration for your insurance.

The example I was thinking of was someone straying into the path of the multiple heavy aircraft that frequent Class D, and their actions which are based on the expected actions of the trained pilots in Class D.

 

Where I live, it's not unusual for clowns to be entering several nautical miles away from entry points, at any old altitude, and sometimes calling a mile or two before they get there in the race to the finish, and they are the qualified pilots in complying aircraft. Any freshly shaven, dressed for the occasion, newly qualified Jab on steroids flyer has to survive that hurdle before he even gets to the circuit.

 

 

[M61A1]

As someone else already mentioned, CASA needs to discharge its ICAO obligations.It may be that a training and Endorsement option can be added, but this would still add about the same training and cost as a PPL; it would be virtually impossible to allow it at a lower standard of training and competence.

Yes CASA may need to look after ICAO obligations, but that's not the point. The point was IF they did it, they would take a workable idea and turn it into something that was never intended and utterly unfit for purpose, because that's what they do, it's the Australian way.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes CASA may need to look after ICAO obligations, but that's not the point. The point was IF they did it, they would take a workable idea and turn it into something that was never intended and utterly unfit for purpose, because that's what they do, it's the Australian way.

Really? That’s TERRIBLE!!!!! I’ve been qualified for CTA for a few years now; what should I expect?

 

 

[M61A1]

Really? That’s TERRIBLE!!!!! I’ve been qualified for CTA for a few years now; what should I expect?

You're really good at missing the point, and maybe a better troll than FT.

But to answer the question, I doubt that CTA will change, but the rules for RA, are likely to be felt by everyone all the way down to the bottom. I expect that although it's generally a "high end" endorsement, there will be extra requirements forced onto those that don't want it and will never use it.

 

A CTA endo may be a great idea, but I don't trust our regulators not to make everyone pay for in one form or another, whether it's needing to be LAME maintained and TSO'd gear or an extra training burden, they will find a way.

 

Understand that I have no problem with aircraft in CTA requiring those things, but I don't trust them not to make it everyone's problem and not just those who want CTA access.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're really good at missing the point, and maybe a better troll than FT.But to answer the question, I doubt that CTA will change, but the rules for RA, are likely to be felt by everyone all the way down to the bottom. I expect that although it's generally a "high end" endorsement, there will be extra requirements forced onto those that don't want it and will never use it.

A CTA endo may be a great idea, but I don't trust our regulators not to make everyone pay for in one form or another, whether it's needing to be LAME maintained and TSO'd gear or an extra training burden, they will find a way.

 

Understand that I have no problem with aircraft in CTA requiring those things, but I don't trust them not to make it everyone's problem and not just those who want CTA access.

I agree with you. That’s why my preference is that those who want to fly into CTA get a PPL and fly a compliant aircraft. No trolling in that.

 

 

[Gravity]

I agree with you. That’s why my preference is that those who want to fly into CTA get a PPL and fly a compliant aircraft. No trolling in that.

Turbo am with you, trolling is not an appropriate tag at all, sad to see it even mentioned here actually!

 

 

[coljones]

Would you like to put money on it Col? People who use controlled airspace all the time are fine. It's a fair bit of stuff to keep on top of if you only do it occasionally, and the radio work for one would want to improve vastly if people are not to get in the Pooh. IF it happens and there are incidents watch for the massive backlash.. How does Australia tell ICAO they have non compliant aircraft and non licenced pilots in their controlled airspace? Special VFR clearances across zones like Williamtown Coastal and into specific aerodromes are all you want.. Keep it something anyone can do. . That's my advice and it has been for years.. Not based on anything I got out of a book somewhere either. RAAus should look after it's "Core" properly Not empire build . for the Ego of it's managers, to the detriment of it's base. Nev

FH, I only half agree with you. There are RAA pilots up there with some of the best. There are also some GA pilots down in the mud. There is nothing wrong with getting properly qualified except that I believe an appropriate regime can be developed within the RAA fold, including landing at places like Camden and Bankstown.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I should also point out that RA-Aus training schools have a CASA exemption to train their pilots (incl. solo flights) out of Class D Aerodromes

As well as class C. One in Townsville training RAA in class C - I believe it is the first.

 

 

[jetboy]

Can you fly a Jabiru to Bankstown or Camden or Townsville at the moment, or is an engine failure still considered too risky? I would have thought RAA should make that the first priority. Perhaps another senate estimates committee will sort it.

 

CASA extends limitations on Jabiru-powered aircraft | Australian Aviation

 

 

[turboplanner]

Engine Failure Does Not Cause A Fatal Accident In An Ultralight Aircraft!

 

This is the subject matter

 

 

[dsam]

Asked and answered in post 1

 

 

[frank marriott]

Can you fly a Jabiru to Bankstown or Camden or Townsville at the moment, or is an engine failure still considered too risky? I would have thought RAA should make that the first priority. Perhaps another senate estimates committee will sort it.CASA extends limitations on Jabiru-powered aircraft | Australian Aviation

Only 4 class D airports were prohibited , never stopped my use of YBTL (Class C) even when the instrument was in place - no limitations with engines with current mods.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Due to the continued discussion on the possible cause of the fatal accident in the Ultralight at Emerald I thought it best to start this thread on the subject of engine failure in Ultralight aircraft.I`ll start by saying, engine failure in itself does not and should not cause a fatal accident in an Ultralight aircraft, it`s the chain of events that occur before and after the engine failure that determine the final outcome.

 

Frank.

To me, it's mostly the chain of events before the failure that determine the severity of the situation. Ie. Where did you fly to leading up to the failure? And what landing options fo you have below you?

 

I've read in this thread that some are "forced" to fly over hostile terrain in their ultralights due to airspace rules, but i question whether us recreational pilots are ever actually "forced" to fly at all. It's always a concious decision to go flying I've never heard about a hijacked ultralight in Australia.

 

As part of our exemption from the maintanence requirements of vh rego we are required to always fly within gliding distance of a safe landing option. We do otherwise at our own peril.

 

Anyone who has flown nvfr on a dark night will attest to the realisation that any total engine failure is going to be fatal as you can't choose a suitable landing site in the dark. Learning this on my first nvfr nav flight was a sobering experience after all the confidence building practice forced landings i had done in the day time up till that night.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

As part of our exemption from the maintanence requirements of vh rego we are required to always fly within gliding distance of a safe landing option.

Do you have a reference for this statement?

 

 

[coljones]

Can you fly a Jabiru to Bankstown or Camden or Townsville at the moment, or is an engine failure still considered too risky? I would have thought RAA should make that the first priority. Perhaps another senate estimates committee will sort it.CASA extends limitations on Jabiru-powered aircraft | Australian Aviation

You can fly Jabirus and other RAA planes into YSCN and YSBK. There are a number of RAA planes based at both. You can only fly these planes if you hold both an RPC and GA licence (with CTA endo) or operate under a training exemption.