Engine Failure Does Not Cause A Fatal Accident In An Ultralight Aircraft!

[kasper]

I can honestly say, I don't know if it was an instructor, reading it in a magazine/book or that I just worked it out, but I have always flown where possible withing gliding distance of an airfield/strip or if not, always had at least one identified field within gliding distance identified when enroute. There are times when you can't avoid tiger country - in my case crossing the channel - in which case I have the life vests on and the inflatable raft ready to go. Some won't do it without a full immersion suit - given I am always planning a ditching near one of the plethora of commercial ships when I fly across the channel so my risk assessment is the gear I carry is enough. However, if I were flying across Bass Strait, I may take a different approach.FYI - 6 microlights flying across the channel from France to England. They may have a LAPL (Euro wide sub ICAO licence), but my guess is they are mainly NPPL...

 

Yep. Love flying the channel for a 15€ lunch. Easiest is coastal at Dover 1000’ and climb to the step at 4500 and start your descent to be back down to 1000 at cap gris nez.

On that profile the raven eclipsr only has around 1 mile in the middle where I could not glide to dry land.

 

Life jacket on and epirb was all I took. Never understood how the chap in the full immersion suit was going to get out of his xair if the fan stopped - it was like watching the Michelin man trying to get in so he’d never get out in that thing.

 

 

[farri]

I watched the Video on the impossible turn, I liked what they said and I agreed with most of what they said, however, they never made any mention of atmospheric conditions and other factors that affect the performance of the aircraft.

 

It`s critical to remember that what can be done and works well with a particular set of prevailing conditions, one day, may not work at all with a different set of conditions on another day.

 

With EFATO, the reality is, regardless of the skill of the pilot, the ability to perform any maneuver successfully, depends in part, on the numerous factors that are occurring at the time, however, determining the maneuvers that can`t be performed successfully and not attempting them, requires the greatest amount of skill and can`t easily be learnt by endlessly practicing with the same situation.

 

Frank

 

 

[kasper]

I’ve practiced the impossible turn at height in every aircraft I’ve owned and in all of them I can do it ... when I know the engine is gonna stop and can do what works for that aircraft to get it around I can do it.

 

Two things to note:

 

1. no two aircraft were exactly the same in what got you around in 180 and still have airspeed to flair and land

 

2. In every real engine out landing off field I have experienced I have never once even thought about trying it

 

In each case I landed ahead/on a very slight offset in exactly the area I had as my go-to area before I took off.

 

“Impossible turn” is technically not impossible BUT it’s not part of my plans because from all the experience of EFATO I’ve had the Adrenalin rush and compression of time I’ve experienced means I just had to do he same standard trained experience because I am not a super pilot - I am average at best.

 

 

[facthunter]

By calling it "impossible" you almost invite people to do it. It can be done (carefully) in certain circumstances like some headwind (usually)and a good gradient of climb being achieved.. A slow turn is not optimum so how is a max 30 degree turn apparently being taught compatible with that.? You should not be afraid of turning a plane quickly, but should be aware of the factors prevailing AND TRAINED properly. Carry the extra speed required to be safe even if that means losing height. Here we are being scared of sideslipping, getting into a spin, now doing say 45 degree turns. Is it just gentle control applications and extremely docile manoeuvers for pilots now?. There will be times when you must really control your plane, not let it just carry you as some sort of upgrade passenger, who can hold the stick as long as you don't do much with it.. A plane's wing will provide lift safely of you don't go beyond the approx. 14 degrees angle to the RELATIVE airflow. The elevator controls that Angle of attack. the Pilot holds the elevator, so you as the pilot have the matter in your own hands. You are not supposed to be flying along being scared of falling out of the sky.

 

This is not to be taken as encouraging turn back. There are negative aspects to that I haven't covered here.. You safest way is as Frank says. He's walked the walk.... Your first downwind landing shouldn't be from a deadstick turn back. Nev

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

@kasper - wasn't agreeing withyour self-critique, but the sentiment of your post...

 

One of the things that struck me in the video of the impossible turn was the controlled conditions. And the bloke who did most of the talking said that although he could do it with, was it 150' or 200' of altitude, we personally wouldn't do ti with less than 300'. That should give him some margin for other fctors such as atmospheric conditions. But I liked their general message - don't stop learning at the pass of the flight test - get to know your plane and practice various scenarios. If you pratrice them enough, you will encounter many of the variable factors @farri mentions. Also important dead stick on a dead prop.

[pmccarthy]

The turns at 200 or 300 feet are misleading for "normal" aircraft that need 600 to 700 feet. In a circuit you would be turning downwind by then, so the return isn't straightforward.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yep. Love flying the channel for a 15€ lunch. Easiest is coastal at Dover 1000’ and climb to the step at 4500 and start your descent to be back down to 1000 at cap gris nez. On that profile the raven eclipsr only has around 1 mile in the middle where I could not glide to dry land.

Life jacket on and epirb was all I took. Never understood how the chap in the full immersion suit was going to get out of his xair if the fan stopped - it was like watching the Michelin man trying to get in so he’d never get out in that thing.

When I was based at Fairoaks, there were several points where I used to hop over the 20nm leg... But being based at Dunkeswell, the closest way over the Channel to France is, as I recall, due south, abuot 85nm over the water and not too many watercraft about. Plus there are a lot of MIL restricted areas.. Beats my risk aversion tolerance so I head east, stop at Lydd for a refuel (able to claim back the VAT/Sales Tax in Aussie terms) and coast out to Calais (as it is a lot cheaper and a short ride from the airfield has some rather delicious local fare at very good prices - also instrument approaches are free).

 

This year, I am going to be a pax/navigator to Aero Freidrichshafen (AERO | April 18 – 21, 2018) and am taking a pax to somwhere in Italy (Raduno 2018 - FLYER Forums). And if all goes well, I will make Birdsville this year...

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

The turns at 200 or 300 feet are misleading for "normal" aircraft that need 600 to 700 feet. In a circuit you would be turning downwind by then, so the return isn't straightforward.

Agree, but I think that was the purpose behind the "know you aircraft" message

 

 

[M61A1]

When these guys are operating out of tight back country strips the turn back maybe the most desirable option if you are capable and prepared for it.

 

They did also show the strip elevation in the video, pretty sure it was over 5000’.

 

Still, the message is, get out and practice, find out what you and your aircraft are capable of, and what you’re not capable of, it may save your life.

 

 

[facthunter]

The prop doesn't always stop windmilling. The Rotax does is it's geared and will never air restart either. An air restart with a fixed pitch prop is quite dramatic if the engine is in good condition. (Lots of compression). It would be a good idea to know just how a stopped prop affects your particular aeroplane. You idle setting will affect how far you float down the runway when your engine is running, but at approach speed with no power compared with stopped prop, who knows? A stationary prop with narrow blades is not that draggy at low forward speed. Deadstick landings should aim further down the field as best hit the far fence slowly than the near one at flying speed. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

When I was based at Fairoaks, there were several points where I used to hop over the 20nm leg... But being based at Dunkeswell, the closest way over the Channel to France is, as I recall, due south, abuot 85nm over the water and not too many watercraft about. Plus there are a lot of MIL restricted areas.. Beats my risk aversion tolerance so I head east, stop at Lydd for a refuel (able to claim back the VAT/Sales Tax in Aussie terms) and coast out to Calais (as it is a lot cheaper and a short ride from the airfield has some rather delicious local fare at very good prices - also instrument approaches are free).This year, I am going to be a pax/navigator to Aero Freidrichshafen (AERO | April 18 – 21, 2018) and am taking a pax to somwhere in Italy (Raduno 2018 - FLYER Forums). And if all goes well, I will make Birdsville this year...

Have the Italians removed the restriction on Microlight not above 500’ agl yet ? Terrified me hearing if a friend coming across the alps from France and having to follow the mountain contour down the Italian side at 500’ in all the mechanical turb from the mountains. Decided me on leaving Italy alone and sticking to France etc.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...EFATO... requires the greatest amount of skill and can`t easily be learnt by endlessly practicing with the same situation.

So true Frank. Human reaction time is a major handicap. Unlike birds, we're not hard-wired to fly. We all suffer from the "startle" reflex, when survival requires an instant reaction of the right type.

Five minutes ago this was illustrated when a parrot collided with the big window next to my table, as they sometimes do. They usually survive the crash (presumably because they see their own reflection a moment before impact and pull up). Today's silly bugger recovered faster than most. He instantly picked himself up off the ground, hovered in a groggy circle while his gyros reset and flew away.

 

 

[farri]

I like to think most experienced pilots understand about atmospheric conditions and other factors at the time, that affect the performance of the aircraft when any maneuver is performed, not just a 180 turnback.

 

What I see missing and misleading in so many discussions on what an aircraft can or can`t do, is the type of aircraft, atmospheric conditions and other factors that affect the performance of the aircraft.

 

If the discussion is only meant to be among experienced pilots who can be expected to know about these factors then that`s probably not so bad but if the discussion is supposed to be for everyone then it includes low time pilots as well, who may or may not, understand that the aircraft doesn`t always perform equally.

 

Frank.

 

 

[farri]

So true Frank. Human reaction time is a major handicap. Unlike birds, we're not hard-wired to fly. We all suffer from the "startle" reflex, when survival requires an instant reaction of the right type.

Also so true! From my first engine failure to my last, the very first thing to occur was the startle reflex, " Sh!t! What`s happening? I don`t believe it!"

 

My first engine stoppage occurred without warning, just over 500` agl and with very few hours of flying experience! The startle reflex was so bad and my reaction so instant that I just pushed the stick all the way forward, even in my high-drag, low-momentum aircraft the IAS went above VNE of 80 kts in a couple of seconds, I realised if I didn`t get myself back under control my aircraft would probably come apart, crash and I`d not survive.

 

I got the panic back under control, slowed the aircraft up, set up a glide and did a perfect landing in a local neighbor`s cane paddock; by the time the owner came over, which was pretty quick, I`d found that I`d turned the wrong one of two fuel taps supplying fuel to the engine and shut the fuel off. It was late in the afternoon so I went home, went back the next day and flew it home.

 

Frank.

 

 

[M61A1]

I like to think most experienced pilots understand about atmospheric conditions and other factors at the time, that affect the performance of the aircraft when any maneuver is performed, not just a 180 turnback.What I see missing and misleading in so many discussions on what an aircraft can or can`t do, is the type of aircraft, atmospheric conditions and other factors that affect the performance of the aircraft.

 

If the discussion is only meant to be among experienced pilots who can be expected to know about these factors then that`s probably not so bad but if the discussion is supposed to be for everyone then it includes low time pilots as well, who may or may not, understand that the aircraft doesn`t always perform equally.

 

Frank.

I would like to think that low time pilots might learn from these sorts of discussions, and going out and practicing within their own boundaries. They did repeatedly mention that it all depends on your type and your skill level.

I bet, with your considerable experience, that you automatically adjust your attitude to maintain your airspeed as you adjust the throttle.....so why is it any different when the engine spools down by itself? I have had a failure similar to that GT500 video, inasmuch as it wasn't a catastrophic failure and the engine just died, and found that I was adjusting attitude to maintain the airspeed from the very moment I started to lose power without even thinking about it,( even found the same when my throttle friction played up) and I reckon you would too.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...The startle reflex was so bad and my reaction so instant that I just pushed the stick all the way forward, even in my high-drag, low-momentum aircraft the IAS went above VNE of 80 kts in a couple of seconds...

Been there, done that! A Jab instructor once pulled a simulated engine failure on me. It was totally unexpected, during climb out after takeoff he closed the throttle at no more than 50 feet. All my prior training had been in Thrusters, so my instant reaction was to ram the stick forward. The poor bloody instructor nearly hit the roof and was totally toughened up. He did recover enough to put me thru a total of twenty simulated engine failures in all sorts of situations (damned good training, all of it).

 

 

[farri]

I bet, with your considerable experience, that you automatically adjust your attitude to maintain your airspeed as you adjust the throttle.....so why is it any different when the engine spools down by itself? .

I don`t fly by the book, I fly my Drifter my way! I use the 4 controls that are there to be used which are, Throttle, Elevator, Ailerons and Rudder... I coordinate these 4 controls as required with every maneuver I do so unless I`m just cruising along, straight and level and that`s not very often, from the time I apply the throttle at the start of my take-off run, my left hand is on the throttle at all times and I`m automatically adjusting the throttle, attitude and airspeed, relative to what I`m wanting to do, my hand only comes off the throttle after I`ve taxied back to the shed and shut down...Taking photos? That`s another story!

 

Quote: so why is it any different when the engine spools down by itself?

 

Well! For me, it`s not! I do a lot of gliding with the prop not turning and the only control I`m not using then is the throttle, I`m still using and coordinating the 3 other controls, though... I have no problem doing stalls, steep tight turns or various other things I enjoy doing when I`m gliding and finally, I land without re-starting until I taxi to the shed.

 

Know your aircraft and the environment it`s flying in, Know your ability, Know where the limit is and don`t exceed it... Now there`s a challenge!

 

Frank,

 

Ps, I`m retired from instructing and I`m not here to teach anyone, anything, also, in no way am I suggesting, anyone do anything other than what their instructor has taught them.

 

 

[coljones]

When I was based at Fairoaks, there were several points where I used to hop over the 20nm leg... But being based at Dunkeswell, the closest way over the Channel to France is, as I recall, due south, abuot 85nm over the water and not too many watercraft about. Plus there are a lot of MIL restricted areas.. Beats my risk aversion tolerance so I head east, stop at Lydd for a refuel (able to claim back the VAT/Sales Tax in Aussie terms) and coast out to Calais (as it is a lot cheaper and a short ride from the airfield has some rather delicious local fare at very good prices - also instrument approaches are free).This year, I am going to be a pax/navigator to Aero Freidrichshafen (AERO | April 18 – 21, 2018) and am taking a pax to somwhere in Italy (Raduno 2018 - FLYER Forums). And if all goes well, I will make Birdsville this year...

It is sad that "Tannkosh" at Tannheim is no longer happening, a great big friendly OzFly type weekend.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Have the Italians removed the restriction on Microlight not above 500’ agl yet ? Terrified me hearing if a friend coming across the alps from France and having to follow the mountain contour down the Italian side at 500’ in all the mechanical turb from the mountains. Decided me on leaving Italy alone and sticking to France etc.

I can't be 100% sure without looking it up, but I think so. The same person who floew their dual seat QuickR to Le Touquet in 2010 on a work flyout also went to Italy a cuople of years later in it and never complained about any height restrictions.

 

<snip>Ps, I`m retired from instructing and I`m not here to teach anyone, anything, also, in no way am I suggesting, anyone do anything other than what their instructor has taught them.

At least suggest we chat to our instructors about anything you are proposing that is not by the book. There are many tips and tricks that can save one's life which aren't by the book, but if we followed the book, would make it that bit more difficult to survive.

 

It is sad that "Tannkosh" at Tannheim is no longer happening, a great big friendly OzFly type weekend.

Its loss has been also lamented elsewhere. Apparently it was known as the Oshkosh of Europe.

 

 

[turboplanner]

At least suggest we chat to our instructors about anything you are proposing that is not by the book. There are many tips and tricks that can save one's life which aren't by the book, but if we followed the book, would make it that bit more difficult to survive.

Where that is proven, its the book that needs to be changed.

 

There are some good posts here and there are some which are just plain dangerous, or can be misconstrued with fatal consequences.

 

I would say NEVER put into practice what you read on an internet forum; discuss it with your instructor and he will explain whether it will be an improvement.

 

 

[facthunter]

The book specifies the minimum. you must cover. It may be enough for some. If one desires more that should not be unavailable . You MUST work with your Instructor to do anything safely in the area of "advanced" manoeuvers (Not aerobatics I must again state) There are some weird suggestions about so check all "ideas" with someone of experience, or even more than one before committing yourself to a way of doing things. What you read on a forum may be wrong and even if it's correct it maybe interpreted wrong.. You also have to "forget" the last plane you flew before the (different) one you are now flying when you have a limited experience with aircraft. We all tend to revert to what we flew last or learned yesterday, unless you are aware of it and make enough allowance for it.. Nev

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Hence my recommendation about encouraging chatting to an instructor... However, I have had a couple of instructors who have ballsed up big time.. Including one, who at the end of the lesson said, "Well, that's how not to do it!". Another had flagrant disregard to the rules of the air. So, regardless of our own experience levels, we have to try to evaluate what we are told anyway.

 

[edit] Oh, and one I taught how to spin and recover in a C152! And it still cost me for the lesson.

 

 

[facthunter]

I should have added "choose the RIGHT Instructor". Some you may learn, despite them, but a good one's like all things good. Best to have. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

That leads to the question. How do we choose an instructor?

 

I have flown with instructors who were plain useless, but they were considered good by other people.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That leads to the question. How do we choose an instructor?I have flown with instructors who were plain useless, but they were considered good by other people.

Regular audits to underpin instructor standards.