Fatal glider crash near Bathurst 21/1/18

[red750]

For those who don't read the news feeds on the home page:

 

Investigation: AO-2018-009 - Collision with terrain involving ASH-25M glider, VH-GOA, 13 km WNW Bathurst Airport, NSW, on 21 January 2018

 

 

[graham brown]

It was a jet powered glider and it was on fire on downwind. Double check any fuel leaks you suspect. A dear friend lost. RIP

 

 

[ave8rr]

It was a jet powered glider and it was on fire on downwind. Double check any fuel leaks you suspect. A dear friend lost. RIP

RIP. Condolences to family and friends..

"Jet powered" I understood these gliders use a small 2 cyl 2 stroke engine that folds away behind cockpit?

 

 

[kgwilson]

Very sad news. Another avoidable fatality. RIP.

 

 

[SDQDI]

RIP. Condolences to family and friends.."Jet powered" I understood these gliders use a small 2 cyl 2 stroke engine that folds away behind cockpit?

There are actually quite a few these days that are jet powered. Beautiful looking machines. The little jet tucks away even neater than the piston/propeller versions.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Video of earlier flight. Obviously confused the investigators as well, they show it in the 'piston' category.

 

 

 

[red750]

Here's a photo of a jet glider which performed at the Avalon Air Show in 2015. Smoke canisters on the wingtips.

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I guess you would let that engine cool for a while before stowing it back in the fuselage.

 

 

[BLA82]

That just sounds like a lot of noise for no real benefit. It would annoy the crap out of me

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Paul Mander was a great guy. Not a mate of mine, but a friendly contact. He represented Australia in the 1974 world gliding championships at Waikerie and has been a wonderful contributor ever since.

 

I do hope that he was not being burned, but in that case, would he not have jettisoned the canopy? In the front seat, he would have been well ahead of any fire from the engine. Not that I want to do unwanted speculation...

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

RIP - very sad.. I wasn't aware gliders had fold-away turbines... (haven't been keeping up with things in the gliding fraternity).

 

Last I saw gliders with jets was at Tocumwal where they had, what I recall a Blanik (but could be wrong) rigged with a soli A-frame to the rear of the canopy with some turbine. Last I heard, it had some problems and didn't get past taxying.. that was too many years ago to think about.

 

 

[WayneL]

Interesting to see the Ash 25 turbines appear to be just stock RC Model aircraft turbines.

 

Wayne.

 

 

[Oscar]

It was Paul's own experimental conversion, not a factory fitment. We will never know for sure, as the fire destroyed too much, but the opinion of GFA's technical consultant is that IF there was still a dribble of fuel and one (at least) engine was still running if folded away, that could have melted the elevator push-rod.

 

Paul was indeed a gentleman and a damn good pilot. Sadly missed.

 

 

[facthunter]

A jet engine for that task is perhaps a design with a conflict of performance criteria. Pure jets have low thrust and high fuel consumption characteristics. It would tuck away well due to it's compact size.. It's sad that the combustible aspect of liquid fuel (a risk normally not associated with glider flying)has come into play here. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

This is, from memory, the second motor-glider in flight-fire fatality incident in Australia; I seem to remember one at/near Camden a few years ago.

 

I agree totally with Nev here - a folding engine (at least) and a glider structure are basically non-compatible. It seems intuitive that one should put the engine away as soon as possible, but whatever the fuel (though Jet A1 isn't as bad as petrol, in that respect), any mix of hot components and combustible fuel - especially in a closed environment - is fraught. You don't need to think just 'jet exhaust' here: a carburettor tilted on its side and a hot exhaust pipe could do it.

 

Yet, the actual drag of the extended engine and prop isn't all that bad for performance; a family member was deeply involved in Bill Riley's experiments with a Robin (two-stroke)-engined Blanik, (non-foldable installation), and he was quite surprised to find that engine-out performance was only a couple of points down on L/D and the handling characteristics were almost unaffected. Obviously, the drag of an extended engine will grow very quickly for higher-performance machines, but not by so much that it should become imperative to fold the engine away too soon.

 

Paul Mander was a family friend, and most certainly NOT someone to blithely take risks with his flying. I worked on his Pik-20 once ( have a vague memory that I signed it out for its CoA following that work, which was only superficial stuff anyway); he had survived (somewhat damaged, but he fully recovered) from a somewhat freaky stall-spin accident about 3k from my place while on a flight out of Camden, many years ago. He was one of the true gentleman of flying, and his death has rocked me a lot. I am not entering the realm of conjecture by saying that I can only think this was the result of control/structural failure (due to the fire, obviously), and not 'pilot error'.

 

RIP Paul, and all condolences to his family. Those who knew him will miss him very, very deeply. A gentleman and an Aviator.

 

 

[Gravity]

Terribly sad, let's hope that from an investigation comes a cause/reason otherwise no one learns from others mistakrs/misfortunes-:(

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well said Oscar. I flew ( every second day ) in a safari with Paul many years ago ( 1997 maybe ) and he had his ASH 25 with no engine in it at all. He said that an engine would encourage him to attempt flying over bad country, and it was better to carry beer in the engine compartment to reward helpers if he outlanded.

 

One day, the flight was from Tennant Creek to Bond Springs. It was overcast and no thermals so there was aero-tow nearly all the way. Well Paul's tuggie suddenly lowered his nose because of an airspace step, and Paul had to fly into the rear of the tug or let go and later land on the Stuart Highway about 60k north of Alice Springs. I was driving down the road, anxiously inspecting the bull bars of the oncoming trucks for fiberglass.

 

All ended happily.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

A proper fire warning system and a fire suppression system are both good ideas. Most of the current motorgliders with piston engines have a fire warning light on the instrument panel. No fire suppression. Better hope it goes out when you turn off the engine and fuel. The warning system on at least one German motorglider consists of ONE thermistor at the front of the engine compartment. Really quite unsatisfactory. Nothing unique about a jet catching fire, there have been several incidents around the world where a conventional piston motorglider caught fire including one at Lake Keepit where the engine backfired on startup on the ground and the back of the ASH25M burned off.

 

Oscar the published L/D of a Nimbus 3DM is 57 clean and 17 with the engine extended. More than a small difference.

 

Motorgliders used to have the engines out in the breeze on a pylon. This was probably OK but over the last couple of decades the engine has been left inside the fuselage for noise reasons and only the prop and reduction drive are extended. The engine compartment in one recent German motorglider is lined with what looks like kitchen alfoil glued to the composite structure. Not much of a firewall.

 

Obviously the idea is to not put the engine away until it is cool enough not to be a problem.This can be automated.

 

We don't know whether Paul's engines were extended and running or retracted when the problem happened. He phoned me just before New Year for my opinion on the new batteries he was wanting to install (5 cell LiFEPO4 - the safest lithium chemistry) as the maximum voltage just off the charger was 18.0 volts and he was worried about this on the AMT jet controllers. I didn't know but will be finding out. I hope we find out which battery packs he was using. He used to use Lithium Polymer which is a REALLY BAD idea. NEVER use these in a manned aircraft. Li-ion like in your laptop isn't much better unless you use a pretty fancy management system. A laptop has plenty of computing power for that.

 

Paul was also using propane start for his engines. A gas leak could cause a problem on startup. I'd be looking for other causes than a dribble of fuel on retraction with a still running engine. The fuel supply is via solenoid valves and electric fuel pump. When you shut the engine down the solenoid valve closes and the fuel pump stops. Really two things have to go wrong to still get fuel into the engine. There is also the engine monitor indication to say the engine has shut down and the EGT has fallen.

 

There are a dozen or so Jonker JS1/JS3 gliders in Australia with a sustainer jet installation. These seem to be working well. They have kero start and LiFePO4 batteries. I had a good look at a JS3 a couple of weeks ago. Certainly no fire suppression and I don't know about fire warning.

 

 

[Aviatrix]

For those who don't read the news feeds on the home page:Investigation: AO-2018-009 - Collision with terrain involving ASH-25M glider, VH-GOA, 13 km WNW Bathurst Airport, NSW, on 21 January 2018

[onetrack]

As soon as I hear of propane being involved, alarm bells start to ring. Propane leaks are without doubt, one of the primary causes of fires and explosions in any area where propane is being used.