Instructor not familiar with type?

[SSCBD]

Jesus, FLYING SCHOOLS ARE A COMMERCIAL OPERATION. what happens when a flying school gets a new type of aircraft - say a Jab - BRM - Sling for example, they fly it for an hour or so, read the book then take students. Its not hard. They also will learn while training on it. this is what CFI's are for. These aircraft are simple to fly and operate - where is this all coming from.

 

 

[KRviator]

Jesus, FLYING SCHOOLS ARE A COMMERCIAL OPERATION. what happens when a flying school gets a new type of aircraft - say a Jab - BRM - Sling for example, they fly it for an hour or so, read the book then take students. Its not hard. They also will learn while training on it. this is what CFI's are for. These aircraft are simple to fly and operate - where is this all coming from.

If you're happy to let an instructor learn on your plane, you're more than welcome. Me on the other hand, feel this is an unnecessary risk, particularly when it can be avoided and I wouldn't stand for it. The 'suck it and see' mentality has no place in aviation.See that plane below? It was someone's Belite. Here's what happened in the pilots (note, NOT the owner) own words.

 

I’m a multi-thousand hour commercial pilot. I have a lot of flying time in general aviation aircraft, and I fly for a living. I’m embarrassed by what happened, so I’ve chosen to remain Anonymous. I’ve also chosen to share this story with others, so that the pilot community can learn from what happened.“I’d never flown an ultralight aircraft before, much less one with just 28HP, but I was eager to try it. Although I’d been warned not to over pitch the initial climb, that is, in fact, what I did. I climbed through ground effect, then it felt like I lost control of the aircraft, but what was really happening was a departure stall, which quickly turned into a spin. When I realized what was happening, I slammed the stick forward and recovered just as the aircraft impacted the ground. Of course it was too late. A few seconds later, I was out of the aircraft, walking around the wreck, and pondering what had just happened.

 

 

[SSCBD]

If you're happy to let an instructor learn on your plane, you're more than welcome. Me on the other hand, feel this is an unnecessary risk, particularly when it can be avoided and I wouldn't stand for it. The 'suck it and see' mentality has no place in aviation.See that plane below? It was someone's Belite. Here's what happened in the pilots (note, NOT the owner) own words.

 

JESUS AGAIN, KRviator, how you have taken this out of context. I was replying to a RAA flying school CFI flying A DIFFRENT RAA two seat training aircraft like a fox bat two seat. Keep on subject not some story that has no relation to the question.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Jesus, FLYING SCHOOLS ARE A COMMERCIAL OPERATION. what happens when a flying school gets a new type of aircraft - say a Jab - BRM - Sling for example, they fly it for an hour or so, read the book then take students. Its not hard. They also will learn while training on it. this is what CFI's are for. These aircraft are simple to fly and operate - where is this all coming from.

They are nowhere near as simple to fly and similar to each other as the bulk of GA singles. With a fraction of the design hours of GA aircraft, that’s not surprising.

That doesn’t mean instructors need the same time as students, but there is a happy medium. I can remember a Gazelle instructor who came down from the country for an assessment on a Jab J170 I was about to be tested on. When he finally reappeared and landed, he pulled up short, got out and threw up. When they taxiied in he got out flew back to his home strip and we never saw him again.

 

 

[SSCBD]

They are nowhere near as simple to fly and similar to each other as the bulk of GA singles. With a fraction of the design hours of GA aircraft, that’s not surprising.That doesn’t mean instructors need the same time as students, but there is a happy medium. I can remember a Gazelle instructor who came down from the country for an assessment on a Jab J170 I was about to be tested on. When he finally reappeared and landed, he pulled up short, got out and threw up. When they taxiied in he got out flew back to his home strip and we never saw him again.

Many should not instruct or have limited hours or a new shinny instructors. Again its not hard for a rounded good CFI to fly ANY RAA two seat trainer - and they have.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Jesus, FLYING SCHOOLS ARE A COMMERCIAL OPERATION. what happens when a flying school gets a new type of aircraft - say a Jab - BRM - Sling for example, they fly it for an hour or so, read the book then take students. Its not hard. They also will learn while training on it. this is what CFI's are for. These aircraft are simple to fly and operate - where is this all coming from.

Yep, the method you describe has worked for me for the past 30 years of instructing. I was interested to hear the “experts” opinion.

Same approach when I do the initial test flights in an imported or amateur built aeroplane. Knowing the aircraft systems is way more important than handling characteristics - if you’ve flown multiple similar types flying the aeroplane isn’t an issue - it’s dealing with a problem that matters.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I would have thought for an experienced instructor that an hour or two would be more than enough, a couple of stalls and a couple of circuits and I wouldn't be surprised if that was more than enough.

 

Obviously if you want someone more experienced on type you are well within your rights to shop around but I would prefer a 10 thousand hour instructor with 1hour on type over a 250hr instructor with 250hrs on type obviously as long as the multi k instructor had been flying similar style planes before.

 

 

[pylon500]

If you want a good instructor, look for one that learnt/taught in a Lightwing.

 

Problem solved.

 

 

[Piglet]

If you want a good instructor, look for one that learnt/taught in a Lightwing.Problem solved.

I would have said Thruster but both have the right configuration and I'm biased heavily.

 

 

[Flightscope]

That's right we have three Eurofoxes, Aquila A210, Piper Pacer and soon the Magnus Fusion 212!! CFI has flown Foxbats a few hours!

 

 

[facthunter]

Thousands of hours on a type would mean you have long lost the appreciation for any different characteristics" that" plane would have. You have completely coped with anything long ago, even if it's quirky. Students with limited hours are much more confronted by a plane that has markedly different features than the one or two they have become accustomed to. More different plane, experienced pilots have much more ability to adapt, because they have had to .There should be available a summary of an aircrafts flying characteristics available updated as necessary. That would help people choose suitable aircraft for their purposes and abilities. Many hours on one type limits adaptation sometimes, with some people. They keep remembering the last plane and reverting to it for a while.. That doesn't help till you get over it. KR Aviators contribution should be noted. I think it has relevance.. Nev

 

 

[ANDREW_1]

I would be surprised if any pilot who regularly flies a Foxbat changes hands to engage or disengage the flaperones. It is quite easy , and I would think far safer ,to reach over with your left hand .

 

Andy

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

That's right we have three Eurofoxes, Aquila A210, Piper Pacer and soon the Magnus Fusion 212!! CFI has flown Foxbats a few hours!

Thank you for reply. How many's a few?

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Thousands of hours on a type would mean you have long lost the appreciation for any different characteristics" that" plane would have. You have completely coped with anything long ago, even if it's quirky. Students with limited hours are much more confronted by a plane that has markedly different features than the one or two they have become accustomed to. More different plane, experienced pilots have much more ability to adapt, because they have had to .There should be available a summary of an aircrafts flying characteristics available updated as necessary. That would help people choose suitable aircraft for their purposes and abilities. Many hours on one type limits adaptation sometimes, with some people. They keep remembering the last plane and reverting to it for a while.. That doesn't help till you get over it. KR Aviators contribution should be noted. I think it has relevance.. Nev

That is a good counterpoint to the argument that more hrs in type is better. Nev, do you think an instructor would need much time in type to teach how to cope with gusts? How is the foxbat worse than other STOL LSA's with low wingloading? Someone from Gympie, who chose Foxbat over Savannah, said that the Savannah sits more solidly in the air, but that the FB is more manoeuvrable. My calculations said that the BF's wing loading was 6% less. I would not have thought that that would be enough to notice by itself.

 

 

[Maritime_Ev]

I have heard anecdotally that there are a small number (maybe only one) of RAAus flying schools who operate in CTA with apparently some form of dispensation. But those stories were always from people who could not actually verify how or why etc. so take that with a grain of salt.

The local aero club at YBSU has been training RAAus students in CTA under a CASA dispensation for years, I'd be very surprised if they were the only school in Oz that managed it (tho to be fair, it is a pretty quiet airport compared to Archerfield and the goldie). Interestingly you can fly solo as a RAAus student but once you've got your certificate you can't fly in CTA until you get a RPC (normally a couple of hours in a GA aircraft sees to that).

 

 

[boleropilot]

Just a short note, I probably could have checked online for the details of the aircraft but I'm a lazy bugger:

 

I was under the impression the Foxbat is the A22 and the Vixxen is the A32 - apparently they are very different to fly, the A32 being more aerodynamic than the A22...

 

My 'source' told me the A32 is a little 'tricky' to slow down after turning Base, needs to be managed very differently than the draggier A22

 

Am I right ? As for the A32, imho it would put a woody on a jellyfish - having said that, I'd be happy to have an A22 in my hangar instead...

 

BP

 

 

[SSCBD]

Just a short note, I probably could have checked online for the details of the aircraft but I'm a lazy bugger:I was under the impression the Foxbat is the A22 and the Vixxen is the A32 - apparently they are very different to fly, the A32 being more aerodynamic than the A22...

 

My 'source' told me the A32 is a little 'tricky' to slow down after turning Base, needs to be managed very differently than the draggier A22

 

Am I right ? As for the A32, imho it would put a woody on a jellyfish - having said that, I'd be happy to have an A22 in my hangar instead...

 

BP

Yes the A32 is less draggie but nothing hard. Its a learning process of handling the aircraft with speed control, just like using flaps extension speeds or wheel retract speeds, learning to fly a constant speed range is just another step which you should have been taught anyway on any aircraft you trained on, including a drifter!.

 

 

[boleropilot]

I'm just saying they're different, 'tis all - we're talking about a "Foxbat" here but are we talking about a 22 or a 32?

 

and yes, I was taught that when I learnt to fly a Drifter...

 

 

[SSCBD]

I'm just saying they're different, 'tis all - we're talking about a "Foxbat" here but are we talking about a 22 or a 32?and yes, I was taught that when I learnt to fly a Drifter...

Yeah that's fine, was not having a shot, as the drifter is so much fun to fly in summer. I hate cold, used to fly thrusters in Sydney in winter - then Melbourne - it was the pits in winter. The a32 is nice to fly - but then again anything to get me in the air is fun, as I am still a unrepentant flying junkie still after 30 years plus.

 

 

[facthunter]

Training to cope with gusts needs the gusts.. If you don't get the "right" conditions you don't get it done . Once a plane is on the ground it should stay on the ground. The way the plane sits is decided by the maker .Prop clearance etc. A tailwheel plane can be pinned on the ground , (prop clearance permitting) by lowering the nose. You can't do this with a tricycle as you will put too much weight on the nosewheel and risk a directional control problem. Jets dump all lift with spoilers to prevent skips and get weight on the wheels to aid braking... IF you are touching down at say 28 knots a bit of a gust ( say 10 knots) changes things if you can't dump lift.. Flapperons are different. It's an extra consideration to cover. Nev

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I'm just saying they're different, 'tis all - we're talking about a "Foxbat" here but are we talking about a 22 or a 32?and yes, I was taught that when I learnt to fly a Drifter...

I was talking about the A22LS Foxbat, not the A32 Vixxen. I wanted big tyres on mine. Big tyres are not approved for the Vixxen so I would have become a testpilot. Also, the tyres would have removed the speed advantage.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Training to cope with gusts needs the gusts.. If you don't get the "right" conditions you don't get it done . Once a plane is on the ground it should stay on the ground. The way the plane sits is decided by the maker .Prop clearance etc. A tailwheel plane can be pinned on the ground , (prop clearance permitting) by lowering the nose. You can't do this with a tricycle as you will put too much weight on the nosewheel and risk a directional control problem. Jets dump all lift with spoilers to prevent skips and get weight on the wheels to aid braking... IF you are touching down at say 28 knots a bit of a gust ( say 10 knots) changes things if you can't dump lift.. Flapperons are different. It's an extra consideration to cover. Nev

Do you think you should remove the flaps on touchdown? I'm thinking no, but still asking.

 

I will check if a potential instructor has dealt with gusty weather. I think they taught in coastal city north of Brisbane. I wonder if that would have more opportunity for gusts.

 

 

[pylon500]

Do you think you should remove the flaps on touchdown? I'm thinking no, but still asking..

There may be some STOL junkies out there that will argue with me but, typical operations for the A22LS (or L as I've flown) is no flap for normal takeoffs, and only one stage for normal landings.

As a rough guess, a trainee pilot probably needs about 8~10 hours of landings with one stage before playing with two stage due to the change in characteristics that come with two stages.

 

Yes, some will argue that they teach two stage from the start, but I feel it then takes longer overall for the students to get the hang of it.

 

I should point out I teach all glide landings, 'cause you'll need it one day, and with the introduction of electric aircraft, it will become the norm again.

 

The change in characteristics between flap setting is fairly noticeable with some rudder needed to co-ordinate with one stage, and a lot of rudder to co-ordinate with full flap.

 

As for removing flap during touch and goes, the A22L has a fairly low flap speed (60kts) so careful speed management is required if going around with flap so, probably better to get the flaps away before adding power.

 

As a side note yes, the flaps can be a bit awkward from the left seat, most seem to want to change hands.

 

I tend to find when soloing from the left seat, I change hands for the flaps, but when instructing from the right seat, I reach across and still use my right hand, odd really.

 

As for flying in gusty conditions, the Foxbat has VERY light and powerful ailerons in the 'UP' position, and still very effective ailerons in the first stage position, but if the wind is more than about eight knots from any more than forty five degrees across, I would not instruct to land with full flap.

 

I could do it as could many of the experienced pilots here, but not for students.

 

Little side note here about landing 'Bats (and many tricycle types) in strong crosswinds; regardless whether you approached crabbed (my choice) or crossed-up, once you have the mains on the ground you will find yourself holding lots of rudder to maintain directional control.

 

This is not good for the nosewheel when it hits the ground (sideways) so, just before the nose goes down, apply a LOT of aileron into wind, and use the adverse yaw to align the aircraft while straightening the nosewheel.

 

Are you landing on all three wheels?

 

You're landing too fast, go back and practice keeping the nose off the ground!

 

OK, putting on flame suit, have at me!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes the A32 is less draggie but nothing hard. Its a learning process of handling the aircraft with speed control, just like using flaps extension speeds or wheel retract speeds, learning to fly a constant speed range is just another step which you should have been taught anyway on any aircraft you trained on, including a drifter!.

Well you aren't going to be taught that by one of the instructors who thinks all aircraft are the same.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Well you aren't going to be taught that by one of the instructors who thinks all aircraft are the same.

You are really in kindergarten with the holier than thou, attitude. If an CFI cant fly these bats in their sleep, then run away from them.