Helmets in Foxbat/Savannah or similar.

[APenNameAndThatA]

Whaddayarecon? Helicopter pilots use helmets, RAA pilots in open aircraft often do, but people in Foxbats and Savannahs never seem to.

 

Sitting in the Foxbat/Savannah, there are exposed structural beams all around your head. The way I see it, if you crash, there is a high probability that your head will hit such a beam and you will die unnecessarily. The force will be concentrated on a smaller area of your skull and break it. As far as I know, internal roll cages in cars, close to the occupants heads, are illegal.

 

There less of an argument in a Cessna or Vixxen (relative of the Foxbat), because there are fewer beams around. Likewise, short people would have far fewer problems.

 

There is some cognitive bias/behaviour where people who have safety measures in place take more risks and thereby decrease the effectiveness of the safety measure. I can't remember what it is called. Sometimes it is used as an argument against bicycle helmets.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Whaddayarecon? Helicopter pilots use helmets, RAA pilots in open aircraft often do, but people in Foxbats and Savannahs never seem to.Sitting in the Foxbat/Savannah, there are exposed structural beams all around your head. The way I see it, if you crash, there is a high probability that your head will hit such a beam and you will die unnecessarily. The force will be concentrated on a smaller area of your skull and break it. As far as I know, internal roll cages in cars, close to the occupants heads, are illegal.

 

There less of an argument in a Cessna or Vixxen (relative of the Foxbat), because there are fewer beams around. Likewise, short people would have far fewer problems.

 

There is some cognitive bias/behaviour where people who have safety measures in place take more risks and thereby decrease the effectiveness of the safety measure. I can't remember what it is called. Sometimes it is used as an argument against bicycle helmets.

Yes, the helmet is not permitted to touch the roll cage from the restrained position, but a racing harness is heavier, and you are only partially restrained with a lap sash, so for what you are setting out to achieve is difficult; roll cage clearance is closer to 150 mm than 50 mm. However the dynamics are different, you can be severely slammed from the front rear and sides, and slammed down on your roof in a car, while the forces are usually gentler, and not coming from uncontrolled directions. Given the fashion for earphones, these days you are already halfway to helmets. One negative from helmets is reduced visibility, and open face helmets are virtually extinct.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I have changed over to a helmet and love it. I haven’t noticed any reduction in visibility. Actually I spent a bit extra and got a good one with a flip down tinted visor and find now I can comfortably land and takeoff into the early morning sun or the late afternoon sun without any discomfort at all which is something I couldn’t do easily before so really it has helped my visibility.

 

I think they are a good thing, am I more likely to do stupid things? I hope not.

 

Why did I get it? I enjoy LL flying and intend to do more of it so being closer to the ground more often would have to increase risk as far as I can tell so I figure a helmet can’t be a bad thing, also I have those steel bars around my head as well and as thick as my head may be I don’t think it can compete with chrome moly.

 

So I think helmets are a good option, IMO they have more good points than bad. I certainly don’t intend to crash but who does!

 

Look at helmet stats with people on push bikes or motor bikes in prangs, done right they DO help.

 

 

[ClintonB]

SDQDI, Where did you find your helmet?. It is something I have thought about for when Bushbaby is ready for same reasons ( too many bars close to ones head).

 

Cheers

 

ClintonB

 

 

[turboplanner]

You need one which complies with racing standards (if it fractures with a decent bump, so will your skull.

 

You can’t afford to have an earphone indent your skull when the head cradle does its progressive stretch (crumple) thing if you take a side hit. This may mean helmets with external headphone bulges.

 

 

[M61A1]

Why do you need one that complies with racing standards when there are proper aviation helmets out there? They usually lighter, do not restrict vision , are lighter and have better optics than vehicle helmets.. new ones are more expensive, but there are reasonably priced ones out there. They usually have a lighter shell, but most aircraft don’t have 1 1/2 inch seamless steel pipe anywhere in the cockpit.

 

 

[SDQDI]

SDQDI, Where did you find your helmet?. It is something I have thought about for when Bushbaby is ready for same reasons ( too many bars close to ones head).Cheers

ClintonB

Clinton I got mine through Flight helmets Australia Flight Helmets Australia | Authorised Distributor for MSA

I found them very friendly and easy to deal with. Expensive but a worthwhile long term investment imho.

 

 

[Chocolate]

I have a helmet for sale. 0409224605

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I have a helmet for sale. 0409224605

Type and size?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why do you need one that complies with racing standards when there are proper aviation helmets out there? They usually lighter, do not restrict vision , are lighter and have better optics than vehicle helmets.. new ones are more expensive, but there are reasonably priced ones out there. They usually have a lighter shell, but most aircraft don’t have 1 1/2 inch seamless steel pipe anywhere in the cockpit.

I did mention that car rules prevent any contact with the roll cage. The clearance figures recently quoted mean that any internal aviation tube will contact the helmet, so there is a need to find a way to avoid a tube shape indentation in your skull.Moving any tubes away from above your head creates two potential issues:

 

1. Structural Strength needs to be recalculated first

 

2. Without that tube, if you flip over during a forced landing and bang down on a stump/Rock etc. the Helmet doesn't protect your neck from braking.

 

These are the current Australian race standards; they are international and it should be possible to google the test standards and compare them with your "proper aviation helmets", it's performance you are looking for.

 

Full faced and comply with one of the following:

 

1) Snell SA-2015

 

2) Snell SA-2010

 

3) BS 6658-85 Type A/FR. (must be no older than 5 years from manufacturer date).

 

4) FIA 8858-2010

 

5) FIA 8859-2015

 

6) FIA 8860-2010

 

 

I notice they've moved to full face; if you are sliding along upside down, things like rocks, tree branches etc on the ground are at your face level.

 

I used to wear an open-face helmet and a thermoplastic Motorcross mask until one night the car in front of me threw up a rock which compressed the mask so far back, it broke my nose, and I suspect facial injuries are the reason full face helmets are specified now. In a car, like a motorbike, the major forces are coming at you straight on, and full face provides a structural safety barrier, which may not be as necessary in an aircraft.

 

 

 

I tried my full face helmet on to check available vision, and found:

 

 

 

The visor gives you wider angles than your glasses, if you wear them.

 

Without glasses, I was able to line up with a wall, and see along it at 90 degrees facing directly away from it, so 180 degree vision, really limited by our eyes.

 

Upward vision is unlimited by the visor, your ability to roll your eyes up is the limit.

 

Down, the angle is about 20 degrees below horizontal, with your head horizontal. That applies to the central 50 mm or so, otherwise the lower extent of your glasses is the limit.

 

The weight of my full face helmet is 1325 grammes.

 

Mine doesn't have audio, and I'd suggest the best way to experiment is as a passenger, because the downward vision to the instruments can only really be checked in the cockpit with the aircraft bouncing around.

 

 

[M61A1]

I use an older Gentex Alpha helmet. Complete with visor and comms is almost 1300 grams, and while it may not offer the extreme protection of the certified racing helmets, some protection (generally speaking) is better than none. You mention your nose being broken through a mask....how much worse would it have been without the mask?

 

I do have a converted open face motorcycle helmet also, which I have used a lot prior to getting the Alpha It is heavier and more difficult to fit the comms, and slightly restricts vision, mainly upward.

 

The main reason I wear one is that I read a few too many incident reports about pilots or crew who would have lived if they were conscious to get out of the fire or water, but it is handy having eye protection, hearing protection and comms all in one unit in an open cockpit.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You mention your nose being broken through a mask....how much worse would it have been without the mask?

Probably surgery, fractured skull; saw the benefits of full face straight away.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You mention your nose being broken through a mask....how much worse would it have been without the mask?

Probably surgery, fractured skull; saw the benefits of full face straight away

 

[Chocolate]

 

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

[ATTACH=full]53927[/ATTACH]

What are the brand and size? I assume it has standard GA plugs. Did you buy it new? How many flip-down visors does it have and what colour and condition are they? Thanks.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

[ATTACH=full]53927[/ATTACH]

Hi, and what are the headphones and mike? If it is ANR, does it need batteries?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Just for reference I got my helmet with ANR because I used to use Zulus with it and absolutely loved it, I would never by another headset without it so I got it with the helmet BUT in hindsight I don't see as much benefit with it in the helmet.

 

I think it is Mainly due to the fact the helmet has much better passive noise reduction which means the ANR has less to do. It makes a slight difference but if I was to buy again I wouldn't worry about it in a good helmet.

 

 

[turboplanner]

[ATTACH=full]53927[/ATTACH]

If you come down hard in a flip, you'll have that four prong nut shape punched into your skull - I'd leave that one alone.

When a golf ball is hit, it becomes a flat disk for a second, then expands back.

 

Much the same applies in a crash helmet. The helmet will flatten as it hits an object; if you look inside, you'll see the compressible material is around 40 mm thick. That's the progressive crumple material that helps prevent your brain being smashed into your skull with fatal results. When that material is fully compressed, in a really bad collision, your skull starts to elongate/distort.

 

If that's the extent of the collision, the skull flexes back, the compressible material flexes back, and you might have a sore head for a few days.

 

If the collision is harder, the skull flex becomes a fracture, and you are right on the fatal range, but fracturing the skull when the brain acceleration has been slowed by progressive crumple gives you a much better chance of survival without ongoing brain damage.

 

A genuine crash helmet is an amazing piece of engineering, developed over many decades of practical experience.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

If you come down hard in a flip, you'll have that four prong nut shape punched into your skull - I'd leave that one alone.....

The Gentex style helmet (like that one) has to be one of the most developed of all flying helmets. As I understand it, it started out many years ago as the standard issue US Navy pilot helmet and consequently was 'tested and developed' in numerous landing mishaps on (and off) carriers by fast jets and helicopters, as well as during high-speed ejections.

I have one and used it during my years helicopter mustering and must say it's extremely comfortable when flying for long hours each day, far better than flying with a headset.

 

Inside the kevlar/glass shell is a medium density styrofoam liner and inside that is the leather and webbing suspension liner which holds the helmet clear of your head, that liner is adjustable for a good fit . In an event where the helmet impacts something the suspension liner should keep your head away from the styro liner and the shell except in the severest instance.

 

Normally the visor would be down (clear or tinted) in which case the star shaped nut is not in the position shown in the picture above. I think it would be very unlikely, or an exceptionally unlucky chance that it were ever to protrude through the helmet, especially not far enough to reach the head. If it did, I think the occupant would have many more much more severe injuries, so the nut might be the last of his worries.

 

 

[M61A1]

What are the brand and size? I assume it has standard GA plugs. Did you buy it new? How many flip-down visors does it have and what colour and condition are they? Thanks.

It’s a helicopter helmet. You can see the heli plug on the end of the lead. Best case...you will need an adapter. Worst case...new speakers, mic, lead and plugs.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The Gentex style helmet (like that one) has to be one of the most developed of all flying helmets. As I understand it, it started out many years ago as the standard issue US Navy pilot helmet and consequently was 'tested and developed' in numerous landing mishaps on (and off) carriers by fast jets and helicopters, as well as during high-speed ejections.

Being a military helmet, it might already have a safety performance equivalent to to standards in the earlier post.

I had a quick look at the Gentex site and found one reference: "Not to exceed 175G" but it didn't have any details.

 

The Snell foundation (link below) gives a lot more detail on the test standards for various types of helmets and accessories.

 

The Snell EA2016 standard for "Elite Motor Sports" test specification for a head form is 275 > 243 G peak acceleration.

 

The Snell standard limits the maximum projection of rivet heads to 2 mm, and any feature more than 7 mm beyond the outer service must readily break away. (The helmet nuts on BMX standard helmet Visors are thermoplastic, so therefore will shatter with a hard impact, rather than punch through the shell).

 

Snell Foundation - helmet standards

 

Inside the kevlar/glass shell is a medium density styrofoam liner and inside that is the leather and webbing suspension liner which holds the helmet clear of your head, that liner is adjustable for a good fit . In an event where the helmet impacts something the suspension liner should keep your head away from the styro liner and the shell except in the severest instance.

At one stage styrofoam was used along with the adjustable leather/webbing, but I haven't seen those for a long time In current helmets I think they use variable density polyurethane foam layers, and if you've selected to correct head size there's a gentle pressure all over and it doesn't bounce up and down against the chin strap tension like it used to. The lower perimeter is also usually flat so you can use a horse collar or HANS if you were doing something like crop spraying.

 

Normally the visor would be down (clear or tinted) in which case the star shaped nut is not in the position shown in the picture above. I think it would be very unlikely, or an exceptionally unlucky chance that it were ever to protrude through the helmet, especially not far enough to reach the head. If it did, I think the occupant would have many more much more severe injuries, so the nut might be the last of his worries.

If that's a frangible plastic nut, it wouldn't be a problem, if it isn't, I know what you are saying; you'd have to be unlucky, but people do win Tattslotto, and there's Murphy's law.

 

I've seen more than a dozen helmets fractured in a crash, and the driver is out there unscathed, swearing at the Chief Steward to give him back his helmet; but than can only happen if he doesn't have a bolt, camera, or some other object embedded in his brain.

 

I also understand what you are saying about the nut being the last of his worries, but we are getting very good at incremental survival strategies, removing an item at a time over the years to reach near zero fatalities in Australia and the US.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

It is a plastic nut.

 

And mine is also a helicopter helmet with the single plug but like many of us that fly both we just have a converter cable where the single plug plugs into a single female inline socket with a short cable to double male plugs that suit the aeroplane configuration.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is a plastic

OK, sorry, please disregard my earlier comments.

 

 

[M61A1]

http://www.usaarl.army.mil/techreports/93-2.pdf

 

A short read for you Turbo.

 

 

[M61A1]

It is a plastic nut.And mine is also a helicopter helmet with the single plug but like many of us that fly both we just have a converter cable where the single plug plugs into a single female inline socket with a short cable to double male plugs that suit the aeroplane configuration.

Sometimes they work, sometimes they work but poorly, and sometimes not at all, depending on your radio/comms setup. Usually heli helmets have low impedance phones of 8 ohms and a normal GA headset has about 300 ohms). Some systems have dynamic mics that need power to drive them.

I have put 300 ohm GA speakers, a GA lead with two plugs and a high noise electret mic in my Alpha.