Fine in theory but will it work

[Deskpilot]

I came across this new(to me) engine and I find it quite fascinating. Now it sounds Ok in theory, but will it, or does it, really work. This is a fairly long and well explained look into a 'new' technology. Enjoy

 

 

BTW, I'm working on my own engine design that, when finished, I will publish and ask the same question.

 

Fine in theory but will it work

 

 

[pylon500]

While I'm not an engine designer, there are a few things that make me scratch my head.

 

Just from the simple visualization of the engine, my first thought are;

 

-A lot of engine for four little pistons,

 

-The bearing for the 'armature' are not as important as the little bearings (or bushes) on the piston cam following pins,

 

-I don't know if anyone has had good longevity from combustion systems working into 'tracks',

 

-Bit worried about the sudden stop at the bottom of the stroke,

 

-Even with the delayed Bottom Dead Centre time of the piston, this engine with require a reasonable sized blower (power absorption) to breathe properly,

 

-The overall engine (for it's capacity) is quite large, then the heavy track plates, the magnets and windings, plus being water cooled will make it very heavy,

 

-A lot of people look at these 'cam track' systems and forget that the 'drive' applied to the cam, has to be opposed by the guide system that supports the piston, creating more wearing points that are not initially obvious, and such opposition feeds back into the overall operation as a counter impulse, becoming vibration.

 

It will be one thing to see one running, it will be another to see it put out some reasonable power and hold together.

 

Probably needs more pistons, and or be stacked into a series of engines (maybe only one with an armature)?

 

But what do I know?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I would have thought something like this would be more efficient if the end game was electrickery.

and they have one on the bench.. not just cgi

 

Did read Toyota had something similar in R&D

Problem is a number of countries are mandating and going straight to full EV by 2050, petrol vehicles will be illegal in China then for example, so this will not likely come to fruition. Hybrid is a stop gap so I don't believe you will see anything more than basic 'normal' small engines powering gennies.

 

Our smallish city will have 9000 public chargers fitted by 2020.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Problem is a number of countries are mandating and going straight to full EV by 2050, petrol vehicles will be illegal in China then for example, so this will not likely come to fruition. Hybrid is a stop gap so I don't believe you will see anything more than basic 'normal' small engines powering gennies.Our smallish city will have 9000 public chargers fitted by 2020.

You will need a couple of nuclear power power stations as well then!

 

 

[fly_tornado]

why not? australian love big cars, a long range electric vehicle capable of carrying 4 adults will be slightly larger than the size of a landcruiser.

 

 

[onetrack]

The engine is interesting in its design - but I'll wager it has exactly the same problems as Ralph Sarich's Orbital Engine - basically, insurmountable sealing problems, and heat-control problems.

 

The central combustion chambers are going to create a terrific amount of waste heat that will be difficult to carry away effectively - and this concentrated central build-up of heat will cause major expansion and warpage headaches.

 

Then there's the sealing problems after the engine has done a reasonable amount of hours of work, and all those clever moving components have rapidly developed weird and unexpected wear patterns.

 

I wouldn't be investing any serious amount of money into the design - there's thousands of these "new and exciting engine designs" - and they basically all have serious and fatal design flaws, that ensure they will never become a commercial success.

 

One of the most important areas of IC design that needs to be addressed is efficiency, and therefore, a major reduction in waste heat losses.

 

One of the more interesting developments I have seen in recent years is where researchers have developed a small solid-state chip that turns waste heat (or any heat) into electrical energy.

 

The development and commercialisation of this process (known as thermoelectrics) has some pretty exciting potential, if it can be scaled up.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

why not? australian love big cars, a long range electric vehicle capable of carrying 4 adults will be slightly larger than the size of a landcruiser.

Was listening to ABC radio a few weeks back and even a pro-EV optimistic ++ techno-wiz conceded that EV are not a viable option for significant number of Australians for foreseeable future.

Major factors - range ( even current long range distances are less than typical country travel IN AUST. Beware figures quoted for Europe and USA.)

 

Charging times for long range EV will preclude long distances in a day beyond a single charge. Rapid charge currently not comparable to stopping and filling up petrol tank.

 

Even the guru suggested many city dwellers who have frequent trips into country will require two vehicles if they want to own an EV.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

This proves how there is always hope out there. I agree with Pylon, and I am old enough to remember the Sarich orbital engine, which actually attracted some big development money.

 

The fact is that the conventional engine is about as simple and robust as you can get, and even then its hard to get it to be reliable. Anything trickier sure has an uphill job to convince us old guys.

 

If we are going to see a change, my bet it that electric motors, lithium batteries and solar panels will be involved.

 

How about an electric plane which had its battery range extended with the upper surfaces solar panels? It would partially recharge itself sitting on the ground.

 

The ultimate sporting plane would look like a glider, take off on batteries and cruise above the clouds on the solar panels.

 

Nothing new required here, a few million and you could get one going now. Of course it has already been done, although not just what I would like.

 

There is also the possibility of stratospheric day/night drones ( where enough energy is stored during the day to keep them up at night ) being cheaper than satellites.

 

 

[turboplanner]

This proves how there is always hope out there. I agree with Pylon, and I am old enough to remember the Sarich orbital engine, which actually attracted some big development money.The fact is that the conventional engine is about as simple and robust as you can get, and even then its hard to get it to be reliable. Anything trickier sure has an uphill job to convince us old guys.

If we are going to see a change, my bet it that electric motors, lithium batteries and solar panels will be involved.

 

How about an electric plane which had its battery range extended with the upper surfaces solar panels? It would partially recharge itself sitting on the ground.

 

The ultimate sporting plane would look like a glider, take off on batteries and cruise above the clouds on the solar panels.

 

Nothing new required here, a few million and you could get one going now. Of course it has already been done, although not just what I would like.

 

There is also the possibility of stratospheric day/night drones ( where enough energy is stored during the day to keep them up at night ) being cheaper than satellites.

Have a close look at the Darwin-Adelaide solar cars Bruce. The various websites should have a photo of the interior. The motors are simple, the bodies and suspensions worked well. These are total solar cars that started as streamliners which occasionally reached 100 /hr, a few years layer cruised on the 130 km/hr speed limit, then few years later were required to have upright seating to avoid breaking the 130 km/hr limit............then take a look at the electrical circuitry and accessories required- a long way from affordable motoring.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Hi Bex,How close to Australia's population is your 'smallish city'?

Half million, but it's not relevant, the attitude and desire are what is relevant.

 

Shenzen (China Mainland joint city to Hong Kong) has half the population as Australia at 11 million, they just spent $600 million on replacing their entire 17,000(!) bus system with EV buses, while Australia spends $100 million on a gay marriage plebiscite.

 

Mind you the way Oz goes about things, $100 million would buy about 7 buses of which 3 would always be off the road for some reason, and there would be protests about the routes.

 

One city in China has more electric buses than all of America’s biggest cities have buses

 

 

[turboplanner]

Problem is a number of countries are mandating and going straight to full EV by 2050, petrol vehicles will be illegal in China then for example, so this will not likely come to fruition. Hybrid is a stop gap so I don't believe you will see anything more than basic 'normal' small engines powering gennies.Our smallish city will have 9000 public chargers fitted by 2020.

Mandating at the moment is a bit like the Phonecians burning their troop boats when they landed in a country they intended to conquer; galvanised the minds of the troops.

If your mains supply is coal based, then CO2 produced will be 3 to 3.8 times that produced by a modern diesel engine.

 

A friend of mine who works in the total - infrastructure area of the transport industry recently told me that in addition to the two key targets for electric vehicles, Power for reasonable performance, range for reasonable journeys there were some other issues which have not yet been resolved:

 

• If the mains supply is coal based, then CO2 produced will be 3 to 3.8 times that produced by a modern diesel engine
   
   
  
•  
   
   
  
• For a 100% solar house, with an oversized system including batteries and inverters, then after you’ve calculated - in, the 10 year life of batteries and inverters, and the 25 year panel life, your electricity is expensive, and you are limited to about 45% of the range of your vehicle from home
   
   
  
•  
   
   
  
• Quietness is dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists.
   
   
  
•  
   
   
  
• Recycling Li house and car batteries is a problem.
   
   
  

 

 

I'm sure the Chinese will overcome most of these, but remember, LP Gas didn't make it, LNG didn't make it, Gas Turbines didn't make it - you just have to be in awe of the people who developed the internal combustion engine.

 

 

[Oscar]

Here's a few observations from someone who has watched engine developments closely over many years:

 

1): When the adjectives/adverbs in the commentary ( 'revolutionary', 'greatest', 'unmatched') etc. seem to outnumber the actual fact-bearing words used, it is BS

 

2) When the depiction is purely derived from CAD, it is BS

 

3) When there is no reliable evidence of results from tests undertaken by a reputable third-party testing organisation, it is BS

 

4) if the engine web-site contains any information as to how to invest in this miracle, it is a scam.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The wankel engine nearly made it , at least one ASH 25 in Australia came with one and it is nice and smooth. When you look at the difficulty of sealing the combustion chamber and compare it to piston rings, you can see why there are not more wankels about.

 

That's good info Turbs, It is not immediately obvious that an electric car can be more polluting than an IC engine depending on how the mains power is generated. I wonder if those figures consider the big losses ( up to 50%) in transmission of electricity.

 

Unfortunately, the first electric cars will not cause mains supply problems, so there will be like a big ponzi scheme where the first to get in will present a false picture to the mob that follows.

 

Mind you, in SA they will put up the price of mains power to the point where the electric car will very expensive to run from the mains, so you will need to add the cost of enough solar panels ( about 15 ) to charge the car during the day... bad luck if you want to drive it to work huh.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

in QLD they are installing solar panels into shopping centre car parks in place of awnings, they are literally everywhere now

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well you could drive it to work if you doubled up on the batteries... half at home each day... add another few thousand to the cost.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The Wankel design is close; I’d like to see more design work done. I bought a Mazda RX2 just when Ford put the 302 in the Falcon; did a lot of highway work and the Falcon drivers would take offense if I passed them, and a accelerate to about 107 mph before they ran out of power. That coincided with the maximum power band of the Mazda which would spin the rear wheels out to 130 mph and disappear into the distance. The power was all above 4000 rpm though so suburban travel was very gutless. On long trips the silicon seals would burn out if there was a strong head wind and you wanted to travel fast. Not difficult to replace though, I’d usually start on a Saturday morning, pull the engine out and have it running again on Sunday afternoon.

 

The rotor tip seals never needed replacing, but the combustion flame would creep down the gap which held the silicon seal and slowly burn it away. A 350 mm dia bellville type washer, or ceramic ring to form a flame barrier might be all it needs.

 

Aside from inflexibility around town it would really chew through t

 

 

[Downunder]

I love the range extender technology. I think this is the way to go for long distance travel.

 

The same car for city travel can be without one, but for longer distances it can be installed. Perhaps even made as a removable unit...

 

The size and weight of the unit in post 3 is pretty amazing.

 

The current "hybrid" with actual auto engines AND electric power is just a waste....

 

 

[bexrbetter]

It is not immediately obvious that an electric car can be more polluting than an IC engine depending on how the mains power is generated.

Not more, but can be not far behind either, I have read Ford's paper they did about 15 years ago that included "ground to ground" processing, eg; the mining of all minerals to the ultimate disposal of both car types.

 

This is not relevant to me as far a I am concerned.

 

What is relevant is the way the pollutants are distributed, you walk down the street in a city/suburbs and you are showered with, and breathe immediate toxic pollutants from cars, besides the noise.

 

EVs remove those immediate health threats, that's what I support.

 

Was listening to ABC radio a few weeks back and even a pro-EV optimistic ++ techno-wiz conceded that EV are not a viable option for significant number of Australians for foreseeable future.Major factors - range ( even current long range distances are less than typical country travel IN AUST. Beware figures quoted for Europe and USA.)

 

Charging times for long range EV will preclude long distances in a day beyond a single charge. Rapid charge currently not comparable to stopping and filling up petrol tank.

 

Even the guru suggested many city dwellers who have frequent trips into country will require two vehicles if they want to own an EV.

Mostly nonsense.

 

I own a Tesla, 2 years now, and I owned a 110hp JAC EV for a year, just got rid of it, replaced by a Geely EV 3 weeks ago (it's done 3000 kms and I haven't even laid an eye on it, but that's another story!). I drive these cars and live with them daily,

 

It is without doubt a bit of a pain if you want to travel a decent one way distance, you need to plan, and you need a backup plan. It's completely different from a petrol car where you just get in and go, but it ain't close to the fear mongering that's out there.

 

On the holidays just finished, we drove the Tesla to the snow fields. I'll put this into an Australian perspective;

 

Leave Melbourne with full charge from home base charger. Stop at Albury for lunch while car charges for 30 minutes, nick into mountains for fun and overnight stay. Next morning into Albury for breakfast while car charges for 30 minutes, straight back home to Melbourne.

 

I admit to hating stopping on long trips, I just want to get the mileage in, but with EVs you are looking at 2 to 3 hours drive then a stop, this is normal travel for many, but for me it adds time, but you plan around it. If you randomly drive off large distances to anywhere at anytime, then no, an EV at this time isn't for you. Neither if you are a leadfoot, because they suck juice at an astonishing rate if you get up them, far more exponentially than a petrol engine.

 

As EVs are new, and of course not a scratch on the 100 year infrastructure of petrol stations, there will be an occasional hickup, I have driven down a freeway at 40 kmh at 2am with my headlights off, heater off freezing to death in the JAC desperately trying to save every KW to make it to the next charge point for example, not fun. We made it with 3kms of charge left and the car in limp mode. Range anxiety can be very real in EVs, you do think about it constantly.

 

Now you want to discuss the bright side? EV in a city is amazing, quiet, smooth, massive torque from rest, don't even notice hills or hill starts, no gear changes at all. Setup with charger at home and you're full to go in the morning. The money I save is very noticeable, not just the fuel but no servicing either. I actually smile when I drive past petrol stations.

 

I will never buy a petrol car ever again after owning one, now three, because it suits me what I do 98% of the time, I don't shy away due to the 2% that I 'might' do. Buy an EV and hire a car for holiday trips if that's your concern.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Getting back on to concept engines, the German Goggomobile was supposed to be a rebirth of the People's Wagon, it had a two cylinder two stroke engine, and was advertised as cheap to repair because of its simplicity of:

 

No camshaft

 

No camshaft bearings

 

No camshaft gear

 

No pushrods

 

No rockers

 

No valves

 

No valve springs

 

No valve guides

 

and so on..

 

 

[Jaba-who]

in QLD they are installing solar panels into shopping centre car parks in place of awnings, they are literally everywhere now

Is that in Brisbane?

 

Serious question. Something I have wondered about. How robust are the panels? How are they protecting from hail damage?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Not more, but can be not far behind either, I have read Ford's paper they did about 15 years ago that included "ground to ground" processing, eg; the mining of all minerals to the ultimate disposal of both car types.This is not relevant to me as far a I am concerned.

 

What is relevant is the way the pollutants are distributed, you walk down the street in a city/suburbs and you are showered with, and breathe immediate toxic pollutants from cars, besides the noise.

 

EVs remove those immediate health threats, that's what I support.

 

Mostly

 

t even laid an eye on it, but that's another story!). I drive these cars and live with them daily,

 

It is without doubt a bit of a pain if you want to travel a decent one way distance, you need to plan, and you need a backup plan. It's completely different from a petrol car where you just get in and go, but it ain't close to the fear mongering that's out there.

 

On the holidays just finished, we drove the Tesla to the snow fields. I'll put this into an Australian perspective;

 

Leave Melbourne with full charge from home base charger. Stop at Albury for lunch while car charges for 30 minutes, nick into mountains for fun and overnight stay. Next morning into Albury for breakfast while car charges for 30 minutes, straight back home to Melbourne.

 

I admit to hating stopping on long trips, I just want to get the mileage in, but with EVs you are looking at 2 to 3 hours drive then a stop, this is normal travel for many, but for me it adds time, but you plan around it. If you randomly drive off large distances to anywhere at anytime, then no, an EV at this time isn't for you. Neither if you are a leadfoot, because they suck juice at an astonishing rate if you get up them, far more exponentially than a petrol engine.

 

As EVs are new, and of course not a scratch on the 100 year infrastructure of petrol stations, there will be an occasional hickup, I have driven down a freeway at 40 kmh at 2am with my headlights off, heater off freezing to death in the JAC desperately trying to save every KW to make it to the next charge point for example, not fun. We made it with 3kms of charge left and the car in limp mode. Range anxiety can be very real in EVs, you do think about it constantly.

 

Now you want to discuss the bright side? EV in a city is amazing, quiet, smooth, massive torque from rest, don't even notice hills or hill starts, no gear changes at all. Setup with charger at home and you're full to go in the morning. The money I save is very noticeable, not just the fuel but no servicing either. I actually smile when I drive past petrol stations.

 

I will never buy a petrol car ever again after owning one, now three, because it suits me what I do 98% of the time, I don't shy away due to the 2% that I 'might' do. Buy an EV and hire a car for holiday trips if that's your concern.

 

[ATTACH=full]54067[/ATTACH]

This is exactly the problem of long distance stuff I was talking about.

As I said the statement was made by the pro-EV positive spin techno guy not a nay-sayer. He basically said his group (whoever they were) had done the research and concluded that despite their own pro-EV position, for a large number of Australians - who when asked actually do now do a lot of comparatively very long distance driving in places with no infrastructure ( and which are unlikely to ever get the infrastructure) EVs are currently untenable.

 

Eg.

 

I live in a regional city of over quarter of a million people and I routinely drive 2 - 3 hours out of town. ( did it yesterday ) a couple of times a fortnight. I go bush frequently as do an increasing number of people ( when I try to find a camp site seems like more and more people are there)

 

There is no way I want to stop for even half an hour to refuel if in fact I had somewhere I could refuel.

 

I am typical of many many Australians.

 

I think when even a pro-EV guys says “yep we have done the research and they are not yet suitable for a great many Australians” I’m inclined to believe it.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

We could well have an EV for our second car. The wife's car. It rarely does more than 20k in a day.

 

There are a lot like us around, some even more so. A neighbor sometimes has 9 cars parked at his place overnight.

 

To come down to the farm ( 450K) with a trailer certainly would not suit an electric car. Maybe a hybrid would be ok.

 

 

[onetrack]

There's plenty of us like Bruce. I live in the city, 5kms from the CBD and the missus' 2012 Camry only clocks up 8000kms a year - and I drive it, too!

 

Meantimes, my 2013 diesel Hilux has done 30,000kms in less than a year, and a lot of that is country travel (up to 600kms a day), and towing a big tandem trailer.

 

I could handle an EV for the city car - but at present, I can't see where an electric Hilux would do the same job as my diesel Hilux!

 

I guess it will happen in due course, though, as technological advances in materials, batteries, electric motors, and rate of battery recharge will mean big electric gains.

 

Another factor is high levels of production of electric components will bring costs down.

 

It's unfortunate that we can't predict the impact of new breakthroughs - but they will come, because there are currently a large number of researchers in universities working collaboratively with others, aiming to make big forward strides in battery and electric motive power development. The fact that the Saudi's have acknowledged the "end of the oil age", is good enough evidence to me, that they have seen the writing on the wall.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I am typical of many many Australians.

.

No, you're not.

 

90% of Australians live in the main city suburbs and drive around 15kms per day on average. I already know the figures and driving habits.

 

Yes, Australians are unique in that occasionally some tend to face largish trips, but that's usually by choice.

 

There is no way I want to stop for even half an hour to refuel if in fact I had somewhere I could refuel.

Well that's a choice to be considered when considering an EV. Obviously it's not for you, others don't mind or plan around it.

 

I also hate having to find a servo, especially at peak hour. In the morning I merely pull the plug out and go. The time I save is of a greater total per annum. It's very rare I actually waste a half hour just sitting there waiting for a charge to complete.

 

I think when even a pro-EV guys says “yep we have done the research and they are not yet suitable for a great many Australians” I’m inclined to believe it.

Well "great many" is just an exaggeration. I do agree there are Australians who an EV is not suitable at all, and probably a greater percent more than most countries in the world.

 

I did mention I have owned them for 2 years now, I do drive and live with them daily as I mentioned, and I do some serious mileage each year. We put 32,000 kms on the JAC in the first year, and the Tesla is approaching 35,000 in 2 years.

 

They didn't interview me.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Meantimes, my 2013 diesel Hilux has done 30,000kms in less than a year, and a lot of that is country travel (up to 600kms a day), and towing a big tandem trailer.

I could handle an EV for the city car - but at present, I can't see where an electric Hilux would do the same job as my diesel Hilux!

Yep, no way could a EV do your duties currently at a price point today. The battery capacity required is just way too expensive.

 

Your situation ideally would have an EV Ute and the trailer would also be a battery carrier to save the Ute having to always carry the capacity. These are ideas that will be considered in the near future. I have toyed with the trailer idea for current EVs to increase range for country trips.

 

The fact that the Saudi's have acknowledged the "end of the oil age", is good enough evidence to me, that they have seen the writing on the wall.

Only 40% of oil is used for cars, so I can't see oil ending anytime soon.