Fine in theory but will it work

[turboplanner]

We could well have an EV for our second car. The wife's car. It rarely does more than 20k in a day.There are a lot like us around, some even more so. A neighbor sometimes has 9 cars parked at his place overnight.

To come down to the farm ( 450K) with a trailer certainly would not suit an electric car. Maybe a hybrid would be ok.

I haven't heard very much at all about hybrids over the last ten years or so; I think too many components for a good lifecycle cost.

However, for the farm, a diesel powered commercial is likely to be around for quite some time yet.

 

The diesel engines which power our freight industry, these days only burn 35% of the fuel per tonne they burnt in 1975, and have reduced NoX and particulate emissions by close to 100%, and are still receiving billions of dollars per year for research.

 

 

[onetrack]

Only 40% of oil is used for cars, so I can't see oil ending anytime soon

You're right - it won't. But what will happen, is, in the next 20 years, there will be an influx of alternative power sources to pure oil - hybrid, an increased % of electric motive power, quite likely hydrogen fuel cells, a likely increase in natural-gas-powered engines - all of which will serve to make the energy sources, for motive power and a lot of industry, more widespread and more competitive - and thus knock the Saudi's off their perch, as the energy controllers and price-setters of this world.Already Caterpillar have a hybrid-power crawler tractor (and have done since 2007), and there are signs that the hybrid range in Caterpillar products will be extended.

 

Newer excavators from Caterpillar and Komatsu are using hybrid power - and the braking effort required to stop the swinging of the excavator boom and carbody around, is being captured by capacitors, which store the normally-lost energy into useable power, that can either be utilised on the next boom-swing - or used to boost engine HP. The savings are in the order of 25%.

 

I personally believe ultra-capacitors are an area that offers exciting potential to reduce high current demands on batteries, thus extending battery life by a very large amount.

 

When you consider that a lot of energy is demanded when a vehicle accelerates from traffic lights - and when an aircraft is taking off - then ultra-capacitors offer a very viable form of additional energy storage, that is available on demand, in large amounts, very quickly.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Is that in Brisbane? Serious question. Something I have wondered about. How robust are the panels? How are they protecting from hail damage?

A friend of mine has had a Gumtree branch go through one of his panels, left a hole the size of a grapefruit in the panel and it still generates power.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Ultra-capacitors are already here. I am using them in my Falcon to try and avoid buying a new battery. So far ( 3 months) they are working well and were much cheaper than a new battery. $60 on ebay.

 

I reckon that even if a new battery has to be bought eventually, it can be much smaller with the ultra-caps boosting the starting amps.

 

The Jabiru has operated for years now on a less than 1 kg LiFe battery from Hobbyking and with ultra-caps this could possibly be reduced. They are not going to replace batteries but sure do work to boost the surge capacity of a battery setup.They weigh very little and have ( I hope) a much longer life than batteries. .

 

 

[Litespeed]

The age of the hybrid is well and truly already here.

 

Porsche, BMW, Mercedes all make them as do Volvo to name a few. Most have committed to hybrid as the norm by 2020.

 

A proper hybrid does fine outback as you still have a engine when needed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The age of the hybrid is well and truly already here.Porsche, BMW, Mercedes all make them as do Volvo to name a few. Most have committed to hybrid as the norm by 2020.

 

A proper hybrid does fine outback as you still have a engine when needed.

The Toyota Prius was released in 1997 and sales are still just a trickle.

 

 

[turboplanner]

 

This is the Commer TS3 diesel 2 stroke from the late 1940s to 1960s - 2 pistons sharing a common barrel with what looks like a very complicated arrangement of connecting the pistons to the crankshaft.......but it worked!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

A proper hybrid does fine outback as you still have a engine when needed.

The point I was referring to is numbers of countries will ban oil fueled cars completely soon.

 

I guess Oz could do a CNG/LPG hybrid. All taxis and buses, as well as many mini delivery vans in China run on CNG for as long as I have been here. I don't know the price of it, but a taxi from Chengdu to my city is $50 AUD, a return distance of around 100kms, so it must be cheap.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I think it was John Howard who sold lots on Australian natural gas to China for about 5 cents per litre for a 50 year contract. This was hailed by the press at the time as a wonderful deal. The average Australian has no understanding of depletion, and the press follows suit.

 

(We are seeing even worse right now with extreme levels of immigration. Even Tony Abbott was pilloried for suggesting a slowdown.)

 

So Bex, that cheap Chinese gas could well have come from Australia.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

So Bex, that cheap Chinese gas could well have come from Australia.

Scott.

 

 

[onetrack]

We're harvesting politicians excessive gas output, now? Wow, I didn't realise our home-grown technology has advanced, so fast! I'm having trouble keeping up with these rapid technological advances!

 

 

[Litespeed]

The Toyota Prius was released in 1997 and sales are still just a trickle.

Yes and mainly because they are ugly in the extreme esp the new models.

The Camry is hugely popular as a cab in hybrid form even in country areas.

 

 

[onetrack]

Bruce is right on the mark as regards our NW Shelf Natural Gas going to China for a song - and John Howard was idiotic enough to ensure our Govt set the (low) gas price, instead of letting market forces dictate the selling price.

 

What was worse, we were already selling NG to the Japanese at good prices, and the Japanese were livid when they saw Howard selling Australian NG to the Chinese for half the price they were paying for it.

 

The result was pretty predictable, the Japanese immediately demanded they get our gas for the same price - and they got it.

 

Energy is the linchpin of industry, and if you have dirt cheap energy, your industry has a huge competitive edge.

 

It's bad enough for Australian industry that China's labour costs are half of Australia's labour costs, but now we have elevated political idiocy to new levels by supplying our intensely competitive Northern neighbour with dirt-cheap energy.

 

Australia possesses the worlds second largest reserves of NG, just behind Qatar. We are rapidly heading towards the position of the worlds biggest exporter of NG, and with a little more exploration, we will possess the world largest NG reserves.

 

We could have been the Saudi Arabia of the Southern Hemisphere, but for political incompetence and Govt interference in the energy markets.

 

As a mate said once, "You wouldn't let our pollies run a sweet shop outside a Girls School, they'd go broke! Hardly a single one of them has any business acumen".

 

Nocookies

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The Russians are building a huge pipeline into China, our gas reserves will be devalued greatly

 

 

[onetrack]

A pipeline by one country doesn't devalue another countrys gas reserves - but a large new gas reserve find via exploration, does.

 

China built the longest NG pipeline in the world, the West-East Pipeline, 5,400 miles across their nation - but it had no effect on the value of our gas reserves.

 

If anything, new gas pipelines add value to our NG, because it means it can be sent to more cities from the ports where it's unloaded.

 

http://interfaxenergy.com/uploads/media/ngd/1411741797.jpg

 

 

[microman]

Bex is right on the money re electric cars. Yes - Australia is a bit different from many other countries with the vast distances to travel (for some), but here in NZ 90% of drivers have a commute of less than 20 km. Even my Nissan Leaf with its range of 120 - 160 km is more than adequate for my needs. I charge in my garage overnight (on cheap night-rate power) - has no effect that I can discern on my monthly power bill. If you get caught out, charging stations are springing up everywhere at a very fast rate and I get a charge in 20 minutes (usually free). Running costs - almost nil - annual reg, warrant of fitness and tyres when they wear out. Thats it - even the brakes last almost forever due to the regen braking available. Its taking a while, but with the technology moving very quickly, even the dinosaur oil-burners out there will eventually come to understand that EV's are the way of the future. And yes - I would love a Tesla - acceleration that leaves virtually all other vehicles in its dust and a 500 km range - in almost complete silence. Whats not to like?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

that pipeline is feeding russian gas

 

 

[onetrack]

I get a charge in 20 minutes (usually free)

I'm wondering how long this arrangement is going to last? - particularly when there's 20 vehicles lining up to get a recharge?What I'm getting at is, the electric car is currently a novelty - but when everyone is driving one, it's going to be a whole new ball game.By far the biggest problem that no Govt has yet addressed, is the total lack of fuel tax revenue from electric cars. Fuel excise taxes alone in Australia (currently 39.5c litre) bring in around $18B a year to the Federal Govt.

 

Then there's GST on top of that. Up to $20B missing from Federal Govt revenue is not going to be palatable to our Federal leaders, they will very soon be looking to find a way to tax electric cars, on a level equivalent to petroleum-fuelled ones.

 

LPG was a real winner for many vehicle owners (myself included), because it was untaxed for so long. The LPG-installation industry went ballistic - then the Govt taxed LPG to the same level as petrol - and the LPG industry died like it had taken a bullet to the brain. You're struggling to find an LPG installer today, and LPG cars are no longer a hot seller.

 

 

[onetrack]

that pipeline is feeding russian gas

But the Russkies aren't exactly giving that gas away, like Howard did. Russian gas extraction costs are above our costs, because of the dreadful climatic conditions that they have to work in.

[microman]

I'm wondering how long this arrangement is going to last? - particularly when there's 20 vehicles lining up to get a recharge?What I'm getting at is, the electric car is currently a novelty - but when everyone is driving one, it's going to be a whole new ball game.By far the biggest problem that no Govt has yet addressed, is the total lack of fuel tax revenue from electric cars. Fuel excise taxes alone in Australia (currently 39.5c litre) bring in around $18B a year to the Federal Govt.

 

Then there's GST on top of that. Up to $20B missing from Federal Govt revenue is not going to be palatable to our Federal leaders, they will very soon be looking to find a way to tax electric cars, on a level equivalent to petroleum-fuelled ones.

 

LPG was a real winner for many vehicle owners (myself included), because it was untaxed for so long. The LPG-installation industry went ballistic - then the Govt taxed LPG to the same level as petrol - and the LPG industry died like it had taken a bullet to the brain. You're struggling to find an LPG installer today, and LPG cars are no longer a hot seller.

Fair points Onetrack - yes - as EV's become more numerous there may be queues at chargers, but 95% of charging is done in your own home - its only when you venture some distance out of town (2 or 3 times a year for most) that you need a fast charger. Yes - the fuel tax issue is there in the background, but it will be a gradual process and governments will just have to find other revenue sources to compensate. They dont seem to have a problem in Norway where EV's are the fastest selling vehicles by far - all sorts of incentives are in place to facilitate this. (Free registration, free parking, use of bus lanes, no congestion charges etc etc).

 

 

[red750]

I've heard that from 2020, all EV's in America must be modified to make a noise. Too many people being hit by silent EV's. Too bad they can't do something about guns. A chap at the Men's Shed told us when he was in Europe recently, when he went to cross the road, his friend, a local, grabbed him by the arm and said, "Watch out, bus coming."

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've heard that from 2020, all EV's in America must be modified to make a noise. Too many people being hit by silent EV's. Too bad they can't do something about guns. A chap at the Men's Shed told us when he was in Europe recently, when he went to cross the road, his friend, a local, grabbed him by the arm and said, "Watch out, bus coming."

I was nearly hit by a turning car in Tokyo.When doing some forward planning a few years ago I voted for the sound of a Chev 350.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Bex is right on the money re electric cars. Yes - Australia is a bit different from many other countries with the vast distances to travel (for some), but here in NZ 90% of drivers have a commute of less than 20 km. Even my Nissan Leaf with its range of 120 - 160 km is more than adequate for my needs. I charge in my garage overnight (on cheap night-rate power) - has no effect that I can discern on my monthly power bill. If you get caught out, charging stations are springing up everywhere at a very fast rate and I get a charge in 20 minutes (usually free). Running costs - almost nil - annual reg, warrant of fitness and tyres when they wear out. Thats it - even the brakes last almost forever due to the regen braking available. Its taking a while, but with the technology moving very quickly, even the dinosaur oil-burners out there will eventually come to understand that EV's are the way of the future. And yes - I would love a Tesla - acceleration that leaves virtually all other vehicles in its dust and a 500 km range - in almost complete silence. Whats not to like?

EVs were also a way of the past. Many cities around the world had trolley buses, powered by overhead lines. Horse drawn milk carts were replaced by stand alone electric vehicles which were charged during the day for night delivery; they only came to an end when home delivery of milk ceased. I did design work on electric fork lift trucks, and they primarily went out of favour due to explosions and regular fatalities when people tried to recharge lead acid batteries without allowing enough time for gases to disperse. I first drove an eletric Daihatsu truck in the late 1990’s and it accelerated like a 253 V8 Holden, so I don’t think there will be too much market resistance if the range issues (run flat and you have to call a tow truck), weight, and whole of life operating cost issues can be solved. Already there are niche markets where, as you imply, it’s business as usual.

[onetrack]

...he was in Europe recently, when he went to cross the road, his friend, a local, grabbed him by the arm and said, "Watch out, bus coming."

Yes, fair enough, the silence of EV's is a problem. However, the LHD/RHD thing catches plenty of people out, too, when swapping countries.I've read about the numbers of Americans and Europeans caught out here, by looking the wrong way when crossing the road.I went to Paris, walked out of the hotel, went to cross the street, and the missus dragged me back - I'd looked the wrong way, too!

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Can't see Auatralia getting involved with EV's via mass production for a very long time. Australians love their cars and as long as they can afford the petrol few would even entertain the idea of another propulsion device because nothing out there matches Otto's original design. Besides the Oil Co's always keep a close eye on technology where it might effect their bottom line!