Will Aviation in Australia Get Cheaper

[Benawen]

Just curious of people's thoughts. Now days we've got Raa membership and training for recreational pilots which massively reduces the cost for us that want to fly, as well as more ultralight aircraft being developed and built making the new and used market more competitive. We've highly efficient engine compared to the old Lycoming and Continental offerings. Now though with CASA making everything harder with ASIC cards and Raa jacking prices, is everything going to get more expensive from here on? Thoughts?

 

 

[red750]

Does anything ever get cheaper?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just lately there has been a small surge of healthy talk about the grass roots type of aircraft which grew to thousands, and is the backbone of RA.

 

That's a good trend, and shows there's still interest, and maybe one day someone with the right skills will come up with a simple design, develop it, and sell volume, and if that happens, you'll see affordable flying.

 

 

[onetrack]

Effective electric motive power for light aircraft, by way of lightweight, powerful batteries, and new styles of electric motor design, coupled with advanced electronic control mechanisms, promise to reduce the cost of flying substantially.

 

It's highly likely "drone style" new aircraft designs with multiple small electric motors, will provide air transport much more cheaply, than the current designs of aerofoil wing design being pulled or pushed through the air by a propellor.

 

However, it's not likely that these new designs will make any serious impact on the light aircraft market for at least 5 to 10 years. The current design of light aircraft powered by an IC engine, still has a lot of life left in it.

 

What I can promise you is that the bureaucracy and regulation surrounding aviation and air transport will never get any less, it will only increase, and this factor will be a big factor in the permanent stifling of aviation.

 

Govts also have very good reason for tightly controlling any substantial or easy movement of their populations, on a large scale.

 

One - they love taxing peoples movement - and Two, they want movement control of people, because that is how populations are controlled, and grass-roots revolts and revolutions are nipped in the bud.

 

Just ask the Nazis and Gestapo, they had the finest people-movement controls, and tracking records, that have ever existed. The Americans learnt an enormous amount from the Nazis, and the FBI and CIA still use many of their techniques today.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

There was a big boom in RAA flying hours in 2016/2017, so it seems that the RAA have found that perfect compromise between costs and safety. I can't emphasise enough how big a break through this is in the history of GA in Australia, if not the world. I know of no organisation capable of a 80% increase in flying hours and a drop in fatal incidents.

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

It's hard to say "statistical aberration" with your tongue in your cheek.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I like to think the team at the RAA are very good at the their jobs, they are a team and their is no weakest link the because the buck stops at the boss

 

 

[turboplanner]

Effective electric motive power for light aircraft, by way of lightweight, powerful batteries, and new styles of electric motor design, coupled with advanced electronic control mechanisms, promise to reduce the cost of flying substantially.It's highly likely "drone style" new aircraft designs with multiple small electric motors, will provide air transport much more cheaply, than the current designs of aerofoil wing design being pulled or pushed through the air by a propellor.However, it's not likely that these new designs will make any serious impact on the light aircraft market for at least 5 to 10 years. The current design of light aircraft powered by an IC engine, still has a lot of life left in it.

Still needs a couple of big breakthroughs, but it's tantalisingly close.

Aerofoil wing type fits into the existing regulatory world very well.

 

"drone style" looks more like the flying freedom we all wanted.

 

What I can promise you is that the bureaucracy and regulation surrounding aviation and air transport will never get any less, it will only increase, and this factor will be a big factor in the permanent stifling of aviation.

With aerofoil wing types is should be about the same; you can still get out of control in IMC, will still have to flight plan to suit aerofoil.With drones+ballistic parachute, a whole now ballgame opens up, and meteorology drops in critical importance, BUT

 

A whole new "highway in the sky" or flight pathway map will be necessary if traffic volume increases exponentially.

 

Govts also have very good reason for tightly controlling any substantial or easy movement of their populations, on a large scale.One - they love taxing peoples movement -

There was a petrol station advertising 15+ taxes on the Newell highway for many years.

One of the big breakthroughs in populating Australia would be the removal of all travel taxes, even if that amount was raised in a more central way.

 

and Two, they want movement control of people, because that is how populations are controlled, and grass-roots revolts and revolutions are nipped in the bud.Just ask the Nazis and Gestapo, they had the finest people-movement controls, and tracking records, that have ever existed. The Americans learnt an enormous amount from the Nazis, and the FBI and CIA still use many of their techniques today.

I can set facial recognition on my phone now; only needs the database to refer to; I think that will take care of that in terms of people movement;the cities are already using it to track criminals, catch fine defaulters etc. but you can bet they still won't let go of that control.

[mnewbery]

Petrol gets expensive and loses TEL additive, people buy and drive LPG cars. Governments add tax to LPG sales. Effectively a cause, an effect and a reaction.

 

Petrol and diesel get even more expensive, diesel gets a bad (very deserved) reputation, people buy electric cars effectively powered in Australia 50% by coal (with caveats, YMMV). Governments change registration to get fuel tax equivalent from electric car operators. Not in Australia yet thankfully.

 

Hang gliding, pretty much free but pick your location carefully

 

Soaring, dollar a minute but only in VMC

 

Ballooning, 50c a minute but even more weather dependent

 

GA, 4 to 6 dollars a minute depending on how fast to want spend your airspeed.

 

So for the East Coast latte sucking metrosexuals (e.g. me) no I'm sorry in my opinion flying won't get cheaper or more convenient. Wherever happens the governments will kill it with legislation and it is in their interests to do so. Slowly, like watching a frog boil. With Lee Rhiannon as your party chef.

 

For the rest of the country there are literally piles and piles of under used kit and sport aircraft just waiting for clubs or new owners to discover, fix and fly. Cheaply if not conveniently.

 

Flying is expensive but it doesn't have to be. It just takes time, creativity and initiative. For example I know one club that recently refurbished a two seat plane just to see what it would be like. Go to the Clifton fly-in to find out more!

 

 

[gibby]

Just seen a Tecnam p2008 with 400 hours for sale at $169k plus gst, and he quoted $280k for a new one, you will buy a very nice C172 or 182 for that money. with prices like that it is not getting cheaper

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

"There was a big boom in RAA flying hours in 2016/2017, so it seems that the RAA have found that perfect compromise between costs and safety. I can't emphasise enough how big a break through this is in the history of GA in Australia, if not the world. I know of no organisation capable of a 80% increase in flying hours and a drop in fatal incidents."

 

You forget to add the /sarc tag.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Bring in the FAA version of their Psrt 103 ultralight rules. Then you will have affordable aviation in this country.

 

 

[440032]

Benawen, ASIC has got nothing to do with CASA, it's not their baby. Expensive? Yes. useless? Yes. CASA's? No.

 

 

[mnewbery]

Regarding post #10, Tecnam P92 RG 1200 hours $85K. If you want a Cessna/Tecnam/Ford/Mack/Bayliner/Sony/Apple that is what you will buy.

 

I think comparing a GA aircraft in a hangar to something like a Skyfox or Lea Kestrel that can easily go on a trailer is a bit useless so maybe the real issue is the definition of the original question.

 

Mountains of information has been written on the sale value of planes over 40 years. New Cessna prices have roughly doubled every 10 years over the last 60 years with one big jump in the middle. An original 1956 Cessna 172 was just over two times the average wage at $8,700 USD.

 

Have a think about that.

 

I agree with post 12 however note FAA part 103 and UK SSDR were not born of public need, rather the administrators had no ability to manage the workflow. We have part 10 here and I offer no opinion on that.

 

 

[mnewbery]

CASA CASR Part 103 August 2017 here

 

 

[poteroo]

Most GA & RAAus aircraft are underutilised. The real killer in the cost of aircraft operation has been the massive increase in fixed costs, eg, insurance, hangarage. Combine these 2, and you can understand why a privately owned aircraft, flying 100hrs pa, costs so much per hour to operate.

 

If you look at an aircraft using 18LPH of P-ULP, that's $30/hr. Not a lot when you consider the aircraft might be costing you $2500 insurance + $1500 hangarage, eg, $40/hr with 100hpa usage. With 400hpa, your fixeds drop to $10/hr in this case. Your fuel and other usables such as maintenance remain the same.

 

Aussie pilots could be flying much cheaper, if they shared and flew just a few more hours. But, Aussies want to own their own 1/4 acre block, their own house, their own car, their own boat, their own aircraft - they just find it difficult to share.

 

Yes, there are a few very successful group ownerships around, but I stand by my contention that we are our own worst enemy with respect to costs of aircraft operation.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Yenn]

Who wants to share in a Corby Starlet or an RV4, based near Gladstone Qld?

 

 

[M61A1]

I think Dazza and Onetrack are on the money...It won't be aircraft types or sharing that make aviation less expensive.

 

There is plenty of research that tells us very clearly that the more regulated something is, the more expensive it becomes and the less it grows.

 

More regulation = More expensive. We all know which way were headed.

 

 

[M61A1]

CASA CASR Part 103 August 2017 here

Shame it looks nothing like FAA's 103

[spacesailor]

M61A1

 

"ultralight aeroplanes (defined by weight and stall speed) that are administered by a recreational aviation administration organisation."

 

Were in "part 103 is the "wing-loading" rule, That stopped 16 builder's from obtaining there dream of flying. In 95 10 category.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

Just seen a Tecnam p2008 with 400 hours for sale at $169k plus gst, and he quoted $280k for a new one, you will buy a very nice C172 or 182 for that money. with prices like that it is not getting cheaper

LOL.......ah, but you miss the point: It is cheaper to fly RA.......

 

[ave8rr]

The AU/Euro exchange rate is only going one way at the moment. Not good for imported equipment from that part lf the world which includes the Tecnam range.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Bring in the FAA version of their Psrt 103 ultralight rules. Then you will have affordable aviation in this country.

Hey Dazza, haven't seen you around much recently.

With just a smiggen more weight to increase safety. It's at 115kgs, around 130 would make life easier for many builders. Many in America are apparently overweight because it's so hard to build to that weight spec, but being self regulated they aren't really checked.

 

The quite weird FAA 254lbs (115kgs) figure was apparently arrived at by math calculating impact inertia in an accident.

 

CASA CASR Part 103 August 2017 here

"This is a new Part that will parallel CASR Parts 42 and 91, and apply to persons flying and maintaining these aircraft by applying appropriate requirements that may be unique to these kinds of aircraft. The rules will be consistent with Part 91 in areas of common coverage and will invoke personnel standards similar to Parts 61 and 66".

I have no idea why people ever complain about public service departments ....

 

The AU/Euro exchange rate is only going one way at the moment. Not good for imported equipment from that part lf the world which includes the Tecnam range.

.... because stuff from Europe was so cheap previously.

 

 

[gibby]

LOL.......ah, but you miss the point: It is cheaper to fly RA.......

Its not that much cheaper these days, insurance prices are similar, hangerage is the same, maintenance is a bit cheaper and so is fuel, most RAA planes you see flying around these days are not thrusters or saphires, they are expensive 2 seat 100 knot aircraft. My point with the tecnam for $169k is you can buy a nice C172 for around $70k, that gives you $100k in your pocket for running costs. also a couple of extra seats

[bexrbetter]

IMy point with the tecnam for $169k is you can buy a nice C172 for around $70k, that gives you $100k in your pocket for running costs. also a couple of extra seats

Your economic facts are indisputable, in real life however, it just doesn't play out like that for cars, planes, boats, motorcycles, etc etc.

People want new and the latest.