BalanceMaster testing

[Kyle Communications]

Danny has made a drill template for the jab engines and I think he has sent one to the UK this week. I think in the front of the prop is the best place. The only reason mine is not there at the moment is I didnt have any washers with me then I fitted mine. But behind the prop and the ring on the forward side which starts to go into the gap at the back of the spinner plate. I will change it to the front of the prop and see if it makes it any better

 

I cant see it not working on any engine..it has to work purely by even the theory of it. For something so simple it does make a huge difference

 

 

[crashley]

If you use a laser pointer to check prop pitch make sure you dont have any blade run out as that will alter where the laser points

 

if there is no run out the laser is a great way to check both blades are set to the same pitch

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi Kyle - That's great, puts my mind at ease (who knows what those Frenchies are up to)

 

Engine is a Rotax 912 ULS (100 hp).

 

My set up has a short, 18 mm, extension between engine flange & spinner back plate

 

I have just come from remeasuring my aircraft - (some potential for small inaccuracy due to not removing everything :-

 

• Looks like mounting the BM on flange facing the prop may press up against my spinner back plate. There would only be 0-2 mm in it, Back plate is not flat, has a very shallow w shape in X section . Depending on where the ring/tube ended up, it may still fit - just!
   
   
  
• Mounting backwards on the flange (towards G box) looks like a better bet for overall clearance but I only have about 170 mm diam opening in my cowling so will need to allow for engine movement.
   
   
  
• Alternatively the flat BM, with 8 mm holes, may go either front of prop, if OD 175 mm will fit inside spinner or (if centre hole enlarged from 25.4 to 47 mm) between flange & extension.
   
   
  

 

 

My gut is saying just get the Standard unit - but if it dont fit - I hope Daniel will exchange for an alternative.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Kyle - That's great, puts my mind at ease (who knows what those Frenchies are up to)Engine is a Rotax 912 ULS (100 hp).

 

My set up has a short, 18 mm, extension between engine flange & spinner back plate

 

I have just come from remeasuring my aircraft - (some potential for small inaccuracy due to not removing everything :-

 

• Looks like mounting the BM on flange facing the prop may press up against my spinner back plate. There would only be 0-2 mm in it, Back plate is not flat, has a very shallow w shape in X section . Depending on where the ring/tube ended up, it may still fit - just!
   
   
  
• Mounting backwards on the flange (towards G box) looks like a better bet for overall clearance but I only have about 170 mm diam opening in my cowling so will need to allow for engine movement.
   
   
  
• Alternatively the flat BM, with 8 mm holes, may go either front of prop, if OD 175 mm will fit inside spinner or (if centre hole enlarged from 25.4 to 47 mm) between flange & extension.
   
   
  

 

 

My gut is saying just get the Standard unit - but if it dont fit - I hope Daniel will exchange for an alternative.

Hey Skippy

I've got no issues with my prop at present with no balance master. I'm therefore happy to fit with dish / concave section facing aft and over the front bearing in gearbox position. (They must have dished it for that reason. I am looking forward to seeing its effect in reducing the present minimal vibration to a lesser amount. With many differing locations it will be good to see the results from everyone fitting them. Cheers

 

 

[alf jessup]

Hey SkippyI've got no issues with my prop at present with no balance master. I'm therefore happy to fit with dish / concave section facing aft and over the front bearing in gearbox position. (They must have dished it for that reason. I am looking forward to seeing its effect in reducing the present minimal vibration to a lesser amount. With many differing locations it will be good to see the results from everyone fitting them. Cheers

Hi Bluesdventures

I’m guessing it’s concave for the set ups that bolt the prop straight to the flange, I have spun mine 180 deg to face forward over the boss extension from the gearbox flange which Is about 4 1/2 inches long, tried to see if I could fit it between the front of the boss and back of the prop but wouldn’t work due to the boss having a small flange at the prop end

 

Noticed a difference again once reversed

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hey SkippyI've got no issues with my prop at present with no balance master. I'm therefore happy to fit with dish / concave section facing aft and over the front bearing in gearbox position. (They must have dished it for that reason. I am looking forward to seeing its effect in reducing the present minimal vibration to a lesser amount. With many differing locations it will be good to see the results from everyone fitting them. Cheers

I have gone to considerable trouble to first static & then dynamically balance my prop with very satisfying results. I am attracted to the concept of the BM because it is so easy to get a chip in a composite prop, undoing all my efforts. The idea that fitting a simple devise, that will "automatically" respond to any changes in my prop's (out of) balance is very attractive.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi BluesdventuresI’m guessing it’s concave for the set ups that bolt the prop straight to the flange, I have spun mine 180 deg to face forward over the boss extension from the gearbox flange which Is about 4 1/2 inches long, tried to see if I could fit it between the front of the boss and back of the prop but wouldn’t work due to the boss having a small flange at the prop end

Noticed a difference again once reversed

 

Cheers

 

Alf

Hi Alf Thanks and I appreciate your information. My spacer is 25mm thick and I only have 10mm clearance from flange face to inner side of cowl so if I reverse its fit it will rub on the cowl material. I'm sure it will work good how it is mounted. I look forward to the next flight. Thanks again Mike

I'm sure all these thread conversations are of assistance to fellow maintainers and flyers; I always value the comments and experiences of others when considering aircraft things. Even the Led pointer is a great extra verification method for propeller pitch and I thankful to the member who mentioned it in a thread reply.

 

 

 

[alf jessup]

Hi Alf Thanks and I appreciate your information. My spacer is 25mm thick and I only have 10mm clearance from flange face to inner side of cowl so if I reverse its fit it will rub on the cowl material. I'm sure it will work good how it is mounted. I look forward to the next flight. Thanks again MikeI'm sure all these thread conversations are of assistance to fellow maintainers and flyers; I always value the comments and experiences of others when considering aircraft things. Even the Led pointer is a great extra verification method for propeller pitch and I thankful to the member who mentioned it in a thread reply.

 

[ATTACH=full]60977[/ATTACH]

Yep I see your issue

 

Facing back will not hurt it, I’m betting you will notice a difference as I have.

 

I had plenty of room between the cowls

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Okay - have purchased a Balance Master which looks like it will fit my application.

 

• FIRST - I would like to assess/document in some easy way (doesn't have to be too scientifically rigorous) my existing level of vibration (befor fitting BM)
   
   
  
• SECOND - I would like to conduct the above observations after fitting BM.
   
   
  

 

 

To be as transparent as I think I should be:

 

• Aircraft - ATEC Zephyr fitted with Rotax 912 ULS driving a 2 blade Fiti ground adjustable propeller.
   
   
  
• Prop static & dynamical balanced - I am happy with state of balance as engine/prop run very smoothly.
   
   
  
• Reason for fitting a BM - Curiosity/does it work? and if it does, it may give some measure of long term protection (aircraft & components) and in the event of a chunk being taken out of a prop blade, a more comfortable return to "terra firma"
   
   
  

 

 

 

Your collective suggestions/advice on how to do a layman's observation befor after will be most welcome

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Like anything without any test equipment anything else is only suggestive not qualtive. I know with mine I could feel the difference even on the ground and it was really different in the air. I had not rebalance or checked the balance of my prop for about 2 years and it certainly was out a bit as I do have a couple of small chips in my prop

 

Tomorrow though if the weather gods play the game up here and it doesnt pis8down I am doing a test for a Allegro . The owner asked me to use my Dynavibe has the ok from Allegro to do the test with a look to be able to add it to the list of approved add ons for them. I will use the dynavibe to take a measurement at different RPM all the way to 5000 rpm. Once this is done the prop will come off and fit the BM then do the same test again and see what the actual measurement difference is. I hope to be videoing all of this as well and will post it. I have done this before with a video but hopefully this video will not be as rough and ready as the last. I think this Allegro has a 2 blade prop

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

here is the video I did today on a Allegro for the BM. Certainly made a difference and at the levels we are talking about which is very small it certainly works. The prop originally was very good anyway before the BM was fitted. Anything under 1 IPS (inch per second) is supposed to be acceptable. With the Rotax carb balance does confuse the readings a little so it is very important to do that first. The aircraft bucks and bounces on the ground at 5000 rpm as you would expect also being tied to a vehicle adds to this. In the air it would even much better. This one at idle was astounding . The first half of the vide is no BM the second lot of runup were with the BM fitted

 

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I have updated the explanation and the video with subtitles

 

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Mark Gave mine an hour run yesterday. All good happy with the BM. Worth fitting. Need to re-tension prop bolts now after the run (Usual requirement after refitting prop; as we know.) Also engine service due so will get that done as well. Ran up to 5000 straight and level. All runs sweet. Air was ideal however the vis was hazy with light rain and limited vis horizontal at times so had a small patch to fly in. Did the 5000 runs in a clear patch. Cheers Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[M61A1]

Hi Mark Gave mine an hour run yesterday. All good happy with the BM. Worth fitting. Need to re-tension prop bolts now after the run (Usual requirement after refitting prop; as we know.) Also engine service due so will get that done as well. Ran up to 5000 straight and level. All runs sweet. Air was ideal however the vis was hazy with light rain and limited vis horizontal at times so had a small patch to fly in. Did the 5000 runs in a clear patch. Cheers Mike[ATTACH=full]61099[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]61100[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]61101[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]61102[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]61103[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]61104[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]61105[/ATTACH]

Nice flying boots....where can I get a pair like that?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Mike did you actually feel the difference with it. I know I certainly did

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Mike did you actually feel the difference with it. I know I certainly did

Hi Mark Did notice it is smoother. When prop tensioned I'll do long rim runs in various ram's to WOT. Had limited time this weekend and next weekend may be similar. Cheers Mike

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Nice flying boots....where can I get a pair like that?

Have foot wear in baggage as my flying boots won't hold up if I ever have to outland and walk around. Cheers:)

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Okay! Fitted my new Balance Master (BM) at the weekend (as part of 50 hr service). Managed a brief (.6 hr) test flight. This is my very early experience/observations;

 

First a question; BM, when rotated by hand (befor installation & after) sounds like it has beads in it, rather than mercury (which I would have expected, as a liquid, to be silent). Is this normal ?

 

• Extended run up & checks, as is my practice after doing a service. Heard two load well spaced "pings" - shut down engine - could find nothing wrong. Noise did not happen again. (Have since made more detailed inspection still no sign of what may have caused it.) No apparent benefit/effect from BM.
   
   
  
• Took of under full power (5800 rpm) - no apparent benefit/effect from BM.
   
   
  
• Cruised around at 3,000 ft, from 4,000 - 5,400 rpm - no apparent benefit/effect from BM. Could be my imagination but thought I might be experiencing a non typical vibration at 5,200 rpm.
   
   
  

 

 

So after an admittedly brief test, can not say my engine/prop is running any smoother. I admit to not expecting much if any change, as my engine prop seems to run very smoothly anyhow. I have the BM in the hope it may counteract any future out of balance situations that may arise.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Anyone out there willing to provide the answer /comment ??

 

BM, when rotated by hand (befor installation & after) sounds like it has beads in it, rather than mercury (which I would have expected, as a liquid, to be silent). Is this normal ?

 

 

[jetjr]

Have to say I was surprised it contained mercury - very dangerous and expensive stuff

 

Most dynamic balancing media Ive seen is ceramic beads but that's in different applications

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Mercury goes into a lump when not spread around with cetrifugal force. when shaking it or rotating it then it will feel like a ball is inside. Maybe your prop is already at a spectacular balance. You are the only one so far I have heard that said it made no difference. I know 6 guys using them and all have said they noticed a difference. Some large and some smaller

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Mercury goes into a lump when not spread around with cetrifugal force. when shaking it or rotating it then it will feel like a ball is inside. Maybe your prop is already at a spectacular balance. You are the only one so far I have heard that said it made no difference. I know 6 guys using them and all have said they noticed a difference. Some large and some smaller

Agree Mark. As additional comment is if you pick up a glass mercury switch you can see how the mercury balls up and rolls / runs as you tilt it. I'm all set for a quick fly in the morning, hopefully an hour before starting work. Re tensioned the prop after its hour run after fitting the BM, so it's good for another hundred hours. Even changed the oil on the hangar ride on mower.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Mercury goes into a lump when not spread around with cetrifugal force. when shaking it or rotating it then it will feel like a ball is inside. Maybe your prop is already at a spectacular balance. You are the only one so far I have heard that said it made no difference. I know 6 guys using them and all have said they noticed a difference. Some large and some smaller

Hi Kyle,

 

Not saying thee was no benefit only that it was not apparent. I am sure that if I had access to a vibration analyser befor /after installation, some measurable change will have occurred, however this is below my subjective observation.

 

My motivation for fitting the BM was not existing vibration issues, rather the potential for the BM to "dampen" any future out of balance vibration that may arise from minor damage to my prop.

 

 

[dholder]

here is the video I did today on a Allegro for the BM. Certainly made a difference and at the levels we are talking about which is very small it certainly works. The prop originally was very good anyway before the BM was fitted. Anything under 1 IPS (inch per second) is supposed to be acceptable. With the Rotax carb balance does confuse the readings a little so it is very important to do that first. The aircraft bucks and bounces on the ground at 5000 rpm as you would expect also being tied to a vehicle adds to this. In the air it would even much better. This one at idle was astounding . The first half of the vide is no BM the second lot of runup were with the BM fitted

In the helicopter world, .2 ips (point 2) is just in acceptable range. Point1 is very attainable on even the main rotor, which may weigh a couple hundred pounds. The video showed you in the .3 or .4 range. Is that correct or did I miss something? I would not consider .3 acceptable.

 

David

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

The issue you are not taking into account is carb balance. It affects the balance reading