MOGAS or AVGAS - remote area refueling options

[skippydiesel]

Hi Alf,

 

The fuel flows I have listed come from my MiZer however I ALWAYS check & record my ACTUAL fuel used as part of my refulling - my "normal" consumption is 13 lph. This will vary slightly with "mission" can be as low as 8 lph and as high as 14 lph. These figures are for the whole of the flight profile so include Toff, Climb, Cruise, Descent & Landing.

 

I use 98 RON, when away from home, on rare occasions 95 RON and only very very rarely Avgas. My local supplier has recently switched from BP - Caltex.

 

My prop is a two blade ground adjustable Fiti set to climb advantage (my description of a setting that is not a full climb setting).

 

My air speed control/indicator is not so precise as to be able to give 2 knot increments but consistently indicates 100 plus at the setting claimed.

 

The ATEC Fayeta is some 15-20 knots faster at the same settings.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Hi Alf,The fuel flows I have listed come from my MiZer however I ALWAYS check & record my ACTUAL fuel used as part of my refulling - my "normal" consumption is 13 lph. This will vary slightly with "mission" can be as low as 8 lph and as high as 14 lph. These figures are for the whole of the flight profile so include Toff, Climb, Cruise, Descent & Landing.I use 98 RON, when away from home, on rare occasions 95 RON and only very very rarely Avgas. My local supplier has recently switched from BP - Caltex.

 

My prop is a two blade ground adjustable Fiti set to climb advantage (my description of a setting that is not a full climb setting).

 

My air speed control/indicator is not so precise as to be able to give 2 knot increments but consistently indicates 100 plus at the setting claimed.

 

The ATEC Fayeta is some 15-20 knots faster at the same settings.

Skippydiesel,Yep mine are the same, warm up, taxi, climb, cruise, descent, taxi & shutdown,

 

The Hoffman pulls about 5150 rpm in climb at full power but will quite happily run out to 5600 s&l at full song but your indicating about 125kts at sl burning around 24 lph

 

I don’t ever do it or flog it like that

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Skippydiesel,Yep mine are the same, warm up, taxi, climb, cruise, descent, taxi & shutdown,The Hoffman pulls about 5150 rpm in climb at full power but will quite happily run out to 5600 s&l at full song but your indicating about 125kts at sl burning around 24 lph

 

I don’t ever do it or flog it like that

Yep! I am the same, prefering to see rpms in the 48-5200 range during cruise. Other than the very occasional "lets see what she can do" I dont cruise in the higher rpm/fuel flow area. I like to fly not get there quicker.

 

 

[kaz3g]

A mate of mine uses two of those fuel bags that collapse down when not in use. He fills them 2x20L and takes them with him, gives him two extra hrs in the Rotax, of course it's all about weight but that's up to the PIC

He might soon run into trouble...

91.630

 

(1) A person who fuels an aircraft contravenes this subregulation if a requirement

 

mentioned in subregulation (2) is not met.

 

(2) The requirements are the following:

 

(a) at all times during the fuelling, at least 2 fire extinguishers:

 

(i) must be on the fuelling equipment or positioned at a distance of not

 

less than 6 m and not more than 15 m from the fuelling point; and

 

(ii) must be readily available for use by the person;

 

(b) each fire extinguisher:

 

(i) must be of a type and capacity suitable for extinguishing fuel and

 

electrical fires;

 

50 penalty unit offence

 

 

[skippydiesel]

He might soon run into trouble...(1) A person who fuels an aircraft contravenes this subregulation if a requirement

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

(i) must be of a type and capacity suitable for extinguishing fuel and

 

electrical fires;

 

50 penalty unit offence

OOOOooooh! another good old unenforceable Aussie law. This probably works for "certified/official" fueling locations and in that context makes sense.

I suspect most, if not all, ULP powered aircraft are fueled from an assortment of containers loosely described as "jerry cans". The presence of a fire extinguisher (that works) is purely coincidental.

 

All to often our laws are just an Ass, unenforceable, behind the times, and without the "police" to oversee.

 

I am not suggesting that fire extinguishers would not be a good idea when refueling anything (including your lawn mower), just that the practicalities clearly suggest this is very unlikely to happen - particularly when out beyond the BS refueling from collapsible containers that you have flown in with.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

He might soon run into trouble...91.630

(1) A person who fuels an aircraft contravenes this subregulation if a requirement

 

mentioned in subregulation (2) is not met.

 

(2) The requirements are the following:

 

(a) at all times during the fuelling, at least 2 fire extinguishers:

 

(i) must be on the fuelling equipment or positioned at a distance of not

 

less than 6 m and not more than 15 m from the fuelling point; and

 

(ii) must be readily available for use by the person;

 

(b) each fire extinguisher:

 

(i) must be of a type and capacity suitable for extinguishing fuel and

 

electrical fires;

 

50 penalty unit offence

I very much doubt it, every single person in here breaks the law, no one in a life's time could comply with all rules laws and regulations!

 

 

[kaz3g]

OOOOooooh! another good old unenforceable Aussie law. This probably works for "certified/official" fueling locations and in that context makes sense.I suspect most, if not all, ULP powered aircraft are fueled from an assortment of containers loosely described as "jerry cans". The presence of a fire extinguisher (that works) is purely coincidental.

All to often our laws are just an Ass, unenforceable, behind the times, and without the "police" to oversee.

 

I am not suggesting that fire extinguishers would not be a good idea when refueling anything (including your lawn mower), just that the practicalities clearly suggest this is very unlikely to happen - particularly when out beyond the BS refueling from collapsible containers that you have flown in with.

Then get onto the CASA site and answer the survey on Part 91 proposals. Recommend these provisions not apply to fuel containers of 200 litres or less. I have.

Kaz

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Then get onto the CASA site and answer the survey on Part 91 proposals. Recommend these provisions not apply to fuel containers of 200 litres or less. I have.Kaz

Where exactly does this come into the survey??

[kaz3g]

The survey is a crock but my attempt to send a separate response was returned to me with the instruction to use the survey.

 

If you find out please let me know.

 

Kaz

 

 

[peter51]

Regarding using AVGAS in the rotax - I recently visited Ole who builds the hornet inTaree. He stated that there is no problem running the rotax on AVGAS provided you use the correct oil and adhere to a particular oil/ filter change interval. Apparently the lead can find its way into the gearbox and accumulates in such a way that damage can occur. He explained it very precisely but I have forgotten the exact details.

 

His aircraft are are an extremely considered design that combines performance, endurance, high level of safety due to the structure, landing gear strength, control power, aerodynamic excellence, and dozens of other important attention to design details for a very safe rugged off airport machine.Unfortuately, I couldn’t get to fly it - but I will return in a few months and very much look forward to it.

 

 

[Downunder]

With avgas you need a mineral or semi synthetic oil like Aeroshell sport plus four to keep the lead "in solution" and able to be drained at oil change.

 

Oil change is 25 hrs with 100% avgas. I try and avoid running it if possible but have topped up my tanks when necessary....

 

I think the gbox may have to be stripped and inspected earlier too....

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi all,

 

My comments are sort of related to this topic, ie the word "fuel" is common to both threads!!.

 

I just posted comments on another thread regarding refueling set ups and I repeat here, especially for Kaz from Shepparton in Victoria.

 

BTY Kaz, we have a mutual friend in Keryn Negri, CEO of VCAT who met you at a training course or function with Justice/Courts. Keryn discovered you were a pilot with an Auster and conveyed to me. I haven't met you yet but have read your forum entries.

 

Evening all, ah refueling options a subject dear to my heart!! I fly a Savannah (ex Roger Weston's from Caboolture QLD and a ripper girl). Previously flew a Gazelle and so was used to refueling high wing tanks, ie Mr funnel filter sitting in tank filler hole, standing on ladders, chairs, hoisting and controlling flow from 20 litre plastic containers into Mr Filter. A pain and physically tiring yes?? And when Mr Funnel filter wobbled around because funnel neck and filler hole are different diameters and caused spills, annoying yes???

 

So, I investigated options. Desirably a easy set up 12V electric pump and just poke discharge hose into wing tank, other end in 20L fuel jerry, 12V lead into aux socket in plane and life of ease. But any gasoline approved pump ie FillRite etc cost $400 plus. Lots of dinky water and diesel transfer pumps on Ebay but nil gasoline safe ones.

 

Tried a rotary hand pump, Alimat, bought s/h and ok but bit cumbersome, lots of hose to handle, keep your plastic jerry stable etc. I reckon these pumps are best for 205L drum refuelling setups.

 

Tried the compressed air into jerry. I fitted a valve stem cut off a bike tube, drilled hole in yellow cap and nut on stem with rubber washer seals either side of stem nuts. Fitted on one cap and fitted a tap arrangement using brass fittings onto the other cap. I used a hand pump as source of compressed air and it sort of worked but needed refinement to keep everything stable whilst I pressured the jerry, discharge pipe to wing tanks etc. Good in theory but I just wasn’t in the mood. My simple set up used 2 caps ie one fuel discharge/outlet and one for compressed air intake. Not sure how you would convert a bladder bag as I thought these bladders have only one cap.

 

Then being an ex enduro motorbike racer, led me to motorcycle racing options. I'm happy with setup below,

 

I am amusing "Fast Fill" plastic containers and check them on www.mxstore.com.au. I have two makes with differing handle configurations.

 

"Tough Jug" brand ripper cap plastic containers. 20L $90 and 10 L$70.

 

"O'Neal" Fast Fill jug.20L $70 and 10L $50.

 

These work by simply pressing the nozzle down into the filler hole that slides back on an internal shaft and opens an orifice at the tip and fuel flows into tank. Fuel stops when fuel level covers end of cap so you can’t overfill. Just lift fuel can up, fuel cap seals immediately and absolutely no leaks, spills.

 

Whilst slightly slower, I am using 10 Litre capacity cans. I can lift them and place the nozzle into the wing tank filler hole whilst standing on the ground and doing it one handed. I couldn't do this with 20 L canisters so that’s why smaller /slower 10L are my choice.

 

Of the two brands, I find the 2 handle O'Neil cans easier to use and lift up and direct into tank filler. The Tuff Jug is ok but has only 1 handle and not as easy to move spatially.

 

So how is the fuel filtered you ask?? I buy 95 MOGAS at reputable high-volume stations in 20 Litres plastic containers. I then fill the 10 Litre fast fills through large size Mr funnel filter from the 20L containers on the ground away from plane. I then fill wing tanks using the 10L fast fills. The fast fills stand stable so Mr Funnel sits into the filler hole without wobbles. Being well away from my plane lessens risks from possible ignition from static charge as fuel vortexes in funnel. But of course, I use a static earth on funnel to address this risk.

 

I acknowledge the fast fills don’t roll up as compact as the bladder bags but 10/10 for ease of use. I'm never that pushed for space in Savvy and if I had to walk fuel from a distance then fast fill cans are much ergonomically and comfortable handle than a bladder bag.

 

So that's my take on the process. I'll take a smart phone video of me doing the fill next time flying and post here just to illustrate, after all plenty of muppets making YouTubes about any crap so I should be qualified and an equal amongst them!

 

Happy to discuss further, email me on [email protected] and we can exchange contact numbers and talk at length.

 

Happy Refueling and may your sparks be never.................

 

Cheers Matt Walsh, PIC, Savanah 4295

 

 

[Downunder]

Mr funnel filter sitting in tank filler hole, standing on ladders, chairs, hoisting and controlling flow from 20 litre plastic containers into Mr Filter. A pain and physically tiring yes?? And when Mr Funnel filter wobbled around because funnel neck and filler hole are different diameters and caused spills, annoying yes??

Had to laugh as that's how I do it and it's a pain..... there's also the wind gusting that can blow the funnel out of the hole and onto the dirt with the half a cup (?) Of fuel in the bottom of the mr funnel blowing over the wing and fuse....

I struggle to hold 20 litres for any considerable time up and over the funnel on my high wing, so decant to 10 litres at a time...... more pain. I have also overfilled more times than I care to mention......

 

I purchased a small facet pump I was intending to set up set up to tee into an internal fuel line from bulkheads in the cap of the jerry can but a hangar neighbour bought one of these "fast fill" jugs. He recons it works well an you can't overfill which was my main concern.

 

So I'm going to borrow it and try it. It's 20 L, so I'll try that but like the idea of 10 L ones better...

 

Thinking about it a bit more, 20L would store better in the aircraft rather than multiple 10's so if I can lift it and drop it in the filler hole to take the weight, 20's might be the go.....

 

Dirt Bike Fuel Cans & Accessories | MXstore Australia

 

 

[matt walsh]

Dear Down Under,

 

The wobbling funnel tendency did piss me right off and had I stuck with that system, I would have made some cone type spacer to sit tightly in the filler hole and allow the container spout to sit also, whilst have breather holes to allow tank to fill.

 

But now no issue with the fast fill containers. I agree that less canisters less clutter and better packing but I find the 10 liter size so easy to elevate and insert into the filler hole. I can do it one handed. I haven't tried the 20 liter version and it might be just as controllable, all be it heavier. At this stage its the 10 litrer size that does it for me.

 

I reckon you wont be disappointed either size and its just so much easier than previous method. Its really set and forget and you CANT overfill so dont have to look whilst container empties.

 

One small issue to ensure is that the fast fill spout is just tilted slightly in the tank filler hole to create an air gap for escaping air from tank and fuel enters and displaces air. Its a little fiddly and again the spacer mentioned above would solve that issue.

 

I may have a crack at SkippyDiesel's fuel pump arrangement, and I estimate a build cost under $150.

 

I bought my FF containers from MXstore online and 2-3 delivery time to my inner northern Melbourne suburb.

 

Anyway best for your filling fun. Cheers Matt

 

 

[dsam]

Regarding all this decanting into smaller containers, MOGAS in the Mr Funnel slowly draining, etc etc. I’m wondering how well the octane rating holds up considering all the fuel’s surface exposure to the (often breezy) atmosphere before it sits in the wing tank. Many of the volatile substances that achieve the higher octane rating must surely evaporate through this multiple pouring? Just wondering...

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi DSAM,

 

You raise an interesting point which I am not skilled enough to answer, however the decanting from 20 liter to10 liter container through Mr Funnel is no different to pouring from 20 liter container into Mr Funnel into wing tank. I suggest my current procedure enable the decanting to be undertaken in a sheltered position. Fueling into wing tank from "fast Fill" style jugs does not expose fuel to air as the nozzle is hard into the tank filler hole.

 

The decanting is required to pass the fuel through the Mr Funnel. I have pondered about omitting the filtering and just filling the 10 liter FF containers directly from bowser nozzle, this would result in even less exposure.I dont know about the losses but think there are many unknowns including the actual octane of fuel dispensed from bowser, the condition of your engine, head winds etc. I just wouldn't be able to tell and it would stretch my thinking too much. Im a bit of a "If it starts, it starts" kinda guy.

 

This might be all superseded by having a crack at SkippyDiesel's 12V electric pump system. I buying a pump off Gumtree tomorrow and have sketched up a light trolley holding three 20 liter containers which I'll connect with fuel hose into the pump powered by a sealed 12V motorcycle battery. I'll fit a manual operated nozzle (buy of Ebay) to discharge hose. May put wheels on the trolley to allow maneuvering to each wing and probably can buy a little trolley from OfficeWorks.

 

Anyway thanks for your input. Regards Matt

 

 

[skippydiesel]

[tUOTE=Mattwalsh, post: 671327, member: 8357]Hi DSAM,

 

This might be all superseded by having a crack at SkippyDiesel's 12V electric pump system. I buying a pump off Gumtree tomorrow and have sketched up a light trolley holding three 20 liter containers which I'll connect with fuel hose into the pump powered by a sealed 12V motorcycle battery. I'll fit a manual operated nozzle (buy of Ebay) to discharge hose. May put wheels on the trolley to allow maneuvering to each wing and probably can buy a little trolley from OfficeWorks.

 

Anyway thanks for your input. Regards Matt

 

Hi again Matt,

 

Couple o comments on the above:

 

• "12V motorcycle battery" - you might be asking quit a lot from a motorcycle sized battery - I use a car battery that I keep fully charged but see how you go.
   
   
  
• "I'll fit a manual operated nozzle" - if you are purchasing a vane pump (as I suspect you are) you can not just turn of the flow with a tap/valve like you can with a centrifugal pump. Van pumps are effectively positive displacement pumps. Without a pressure relief or shut off you will blow the seals. I use my on off switch to effectively control flow.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[alf jessup]

Not having any issues with running Avgas or buying it other than it’s up to 80c a litre dearer than Mogas

 

Best advice I can give you is get some skyfuels cards (they cost nothing to get and can be delivered within a week) 3 cards our travelling companions got from Skyfuels before we started this trip as BP bowsers only take BP card (Swan Hill, Broken Hill,) Leigh Creek takes credit cards as does Coober Pedy, let you know what Ayres Rock takes once we get there.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi Alf,

 

You sound like you are enroute to Alice Springs. I am planning a trip to AS in mid August 18 and would appreciate any advice on landing options. I would leave my plane for a week whilst visiting friends in town. Also is an ASIC card required,

 

Thanks Matt Walsh

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hi Skip,

 

Thanks for your comments on battery size and nozzle implications. I was planning to fit a petrol bowser type nozzle so am relieved I got your Intel regarding potential pump seal damage with sudden pump stoppage. I now understand the purpose of your "switch on a lead". I considered the nozzle to prevent spillage when removing the hose end from the wing tank. I could fit a simple in- line tap which I switch closed AFTER pump ceases and stops flow. This avoid me having to handle the hose carefully as the remaining fuel in the hose will be prevented from discharging. Your thoughts????

 

Can you discharge petrol through copper pipe?? I can bend a goose neck end for the fuel hose to insert and hook in the wing tank,

 

I bought a S/H AeroFlow AF49-1008 pump, its the red series pump.

 

Regarding the switch on a lead, I am a mite concerned about operating a switch within 1-1.5 metre of the filler tank and query whether the switch would be a potential source of ignition. Your thoughts? I could fully encase the switch in resin??

 

Comment on battery size noted and I may investigate a 12V size.

 

Thanks again for your input and wise advise. Regards Matt Walsh

 

 

[alf jessup]

Hi Alf,You sound like you are enroute to Alice Springs. I am planning a trip to AS in mid August 18 and would appreciate any advice on landing options. I would leave my plane for a week whilst visiting friends in town. Also is an ASIC card required,

Thanks Matt Walsh

Hi Matt,

Not going to Alice as it is controlled airspace and ASIC would be a definite, we are going to Ayres Rock (Uluru) not controlled.

 

ASIC definitely, 24hrs prior notice by phone before flying in.

 

Then they email you a lovely form to fill out and email back with your ASIC number, expiry date, aircraft type , weight, rego, number of people onboard, arrival time, departure date then finally your credit card details so you don’t skip out on the $55 Landing fee the first 24 hrs then $38 each day after that.

 

As for places to park your plane in Alice I cannot help you other than charges will apply.

 

Procedures are all in the ersa with airport charges required to be looked up on the ntairports website.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[coljones]

Hi Alf,You sound like you are enroute to Alice Springs. I am planning a trip to AS in mid August 18 and would appreciate any advice on landing options. I would leave my plane for a week whilst visiting friends in town. Also is an ASIC card required,

Thanks Matt Walsh

Check with Ken Watt at Bond Springs, just north of Alice Springs. Alice Springs Airport is in controlled airspace and you will need both a CASA Licence and an ASIC. Ken's contact is on this link NT - RAAus

 

 

[apm]

For pump power, could use cordless drill battery. Cut the handle off & chuck the motor, mount handle to fuel cart so you got handy battery holder when in use. 14-18v better than 12v for pump & fuel flow.

 

 

[Downunder]

I know of one person directly and several second hand who have gone into Alice in their RAA planes.

 

No rpl/ppl at least for the person I know.

 

He said ATC were very helpful. (He even thought they were "excited" to see something different).

 

Transponder and ASIC equipped of course.....

 

 

[matt walsh]

Thanks APM , great suggestion and convenient for recharging and handling. The pump isn't working for very long so wouldn't estimate large current drain. But its 12v pump so will a 14-18V battery pack be too greater potential and risk damage to pump motor??

 

Cheers Matt