How do you buy an airplane?

[APenNameAndThatA]

Hi

 

Just paid deposit for a Foxbat while my house sale settles. What do I do now? I have not seen the aircraft. I am in Queensland, Australia. I plan on sending a bank cheque with someone who will inspect it and fly it to my home airport. I will get insurance before I buy the aircraft. I have the names of the LAME's who worked on it and will track them down. I wonder how I find out if there is any money owing on it or if it was written off or stolen (those last two are not likely). Do airplanes have papers to swap the rego over? This night have already been covered of course in another thread.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Personally I wouldn't buy anything I hadn't seen or flown. That said many people do and there are mixed results from being over the moon with the purchase to bitter disappointment. I'd want a contract that provides for the full return of the deposit if any part of the sales hype doesn't stack up. A full inspection report is essential but then even these are not a guarantee. Everything might be great on the ground but it may have a turn or the C of G is not where it should be etc. My advice is go with that person who you are getting it inspected by & fly home with him/her. All its good points and vices should become apparent then. That will give you far more confidence that you have made a good choice.

 

 

[old man emu]

Unless you have landed on your feet, you have just jumped into a money pit.

 

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER buy an airplane sight unseen and without a pre-purchase inspection by a qualified, independent maintenance engineer, who has been provided with all the information about maintenenace issues that have been found with similar models of plane.

 

In the words of my dear, departed pater, "Son, Don't go pissing until your water comes."

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Good advice. I will go with the bank cheque and someone to fly it back if it all stacks up. I will have it inspected by a LAME. One of the issues is that the local LAME was working on it and will have some loyalty to the seller.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Good advice. I will go with the bank cheque and someone to fly it back if it all stacks up. I will have it inspected by a LAME. One of the issues is that the local LAME was working on it and will have some loyalty to the seller.

You really do need to find an independent LAME to inspect it.The result of the inspection should then allow you to negotiate price, depending on what needs doing and what the seller is prepared to cover of that.

 

 

[Yenn]

If it is an RAAus registered plane there will have to be condition report, plus a change of ownership paper trail.

 

 

[IBob]

I'm pretty sure the correct answer to the original question is something like "In a moment of inspired madness".....?

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Buying an A/C is a decision based on a few criteria. Money is the number one consideration after that it's type, age, equip & previous history, the latter very important. Most a/c owners are decent people but like all deals there is an element of unscrupulous operators out there relying on the innocent and nieve. As mentioned here, go see the plane, get an independent inspection, the few dollars you spend getting that is piece of mind. I've owned 4 GA a/c from a few thousand to over a hundred thousand, ALL I had thoroughly inspected independently at a cost, slept like a baby after each transaction, best of luck

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

If it is an RAAus registered plane there will have to be condition report, plus a change of ownership paper trail.

Good info, thanks!

 

 

[BirdDog]

I will give you my experience, as it was a good one, and I am very pleased with the outcome.

 

I found the aircraft listed for sale and so I made contact with the seller. Many people are happy to deal over email and text, whereas I prefer to talk, so I called and we had a chat. It's also a good way to gauge people when you talk to them. Anyways, we negotiated a price and once we agreed we also agreed to have the aircraft independently inspected by a LAME to ensure the bird was as described.

 

Part of the negotiation was that I would pay the inspection, as long as the aircraft come back in A1, as the owner suspected it would. (and it did)! Once that was done, a substantial deposit was paid, and the balance would be paid once I arrived and inspected the aircraft personally.

 

I flew myself and my buddy (a CFI) up to the aircraft where he and I inspected the machine again, from top to bottom. We went over the entire plane, the paperwork, had a chat to the owner etc etc. My CFI mate then took it for a fly, and reported back all was good.

 

We settled the monies and signed papers etc, and with a smile and handshake, we departed and spent the next 2 days flying her home. All the way home I got to experience the sounds and feel of my aircraft knowing I had a very experienced pilot sitting beside me. It was very reassuring, but it also meant I clocked 13 hours in my aircraft to get a really good feel for her.

 

So.. what did I take away from this....

 

Talk to the owner - and get a feel. If I was not happy with what I was hearing, I would look for another machine.

 

Get it inspected by a LAME and get the full report sent to you BEFORE you hand over any serious cash

 

Go and pick the machine up yourself and go over the entire thing. Discuss any concerns with the owner etc, and get him to show you anything that he feels you should know.

 

lastly - if something does not feel right - walk away! Don't get emotionally attached to it before you even see it. Keep it in mind that you may not come home with it.

 

I was quite happy to fly back on the QANTAS jet if it did not work out. I was very happy that the current owner was a nice guy, and everything was as he said it was. So... Happy result in the end.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[old man emu]

I will give you my experience, as it was a good one, and I am very pleased with the outcome.Cheers J

That is the correct way to buy an airplane. Too many people rush into the purchase wearing rose coloured glasses, and end up with shattered lenses.

It all goes back to "A fool and his money are soon parted." Unfortunately, most fools not only part with money at the sale, but continue to do so trying to resurrect a lost cause.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Thanks OME.

 

I’m pretty happy with the outcome. The previous owner (Chris) was very accommodating. Picked us up from the airport etc etc. so I was very grateful for his assistance.

 

 

[old man emu]

Now we want to know what you bought. Pictures, please

 

 

[Chillfox]

If it is an RAAus registered plane there will have to be condition report

independently inspected by a LAME

Are the condition report and the LAME inspection the same thing?

 

 

[BirdDog]

Yeah - I guess they the same thing! :) We organised a full report be done. I was very lucky. My bird is an 06 model that had just over 160 hours and presented as almost new. :)

 

Some pics? Sure.

 

Attached are the pics of 4912. She is an Evektor Sportstar Max, with the Rotax 912 ULS and In Flight Adjustable Prop. These are some of the pics from when we picked her up and on the way home, and then one on final at YWOL.

 

Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BirdDog]

PS - I have since added a new big fat Tacho right in front of me with approval from RAA and Evektor

 

 

 

[johnm]

ahoy birddog

 

can we be bold ? and ask how many hours and $ for a 06 model please

 

 

[kgwilson]

PS - I have since added a new big fat Tacho right in front of me with approval from RAA and Evektor

That's where it should be. Why so many (European) manufacturers have a tiny tachometer clustered with the engine instruments on the right has always intrigued me. They are hard to read and get accurate engine rpm & if you are not familiar with the A/C take a bit longer to locate amongst all the other same size round instruments.

[BirdDog]

ahoy birddogcan we be bold ? and ask how many hours and $ for a 06 model please

Sure man. It had 167 hours on it, and we settled on $68.000. Of course by the time I factored in our flights and accomodation to go get her, plus the L2 full 100 hourly when we got back, the cost realistically hit about $72-$73K

Further to this was some minor maintenance that needed doing - that I knew would be a possibility;

 

She needed new tyres (The ones on the plane were original, so 11 years old)

 

She needed new canopy struts. (the stock ones were sagging)

 

She had not had the extra canopy lock fitted as per the SB.

 

Some other minor bits and pieces.

 

So, I have it in my mind that to get the plane to me and be ready to fly all good and proper has made it close to $75K, which, for a bird of this calibre and condition, was still good for the money in my opinion.

 

 

[BirdDog]

The above said, would I go down the path of 28 registered LSA again? Probably not. I reckon there are some really nice quality home built machines (19 registered) for a good deal less than that. I know a couple of pilots with some very nice Zeniths etc that are just as good an airplane. My original plans was to have her online in a flight school, where she would pay for herself and I could fly her when I wanted to. BUT.... it's amazing how over protected you get when you see someone jump into your pride and joy and take off into the blue yonder. After about 3 months of that, I pulled the pin and now she is only flown by me. :)

 

I have thought of putting her back online and go off and buy something else, but she is just a lovely plane to fly! :)

 

 

[johnm]

Thanks

 

a plane with a 912 with 167 hours .............. and look like a fancy prop - sounds like a good buy to me Birddog

 

 

[Piglet]

I bought my aircraft without looking at it, and faired well with the deal. I didn't invest money I couldn't lose which helped.

 

I wouldn't recommend doing what I did and there were issues that I didn't anticipate and cost me dollars I didn't expect to spend.

 

Answering the original question. If it's RAA you will need a condition report from an L2 and complete the relevant paper with from RAA to transfer.

 

You will have 3rd party insurance with RAA as we all do with our PCs but extra cover for your machine and 3rd party would be wise in the event you are unable to claim in the PICs 3rd party.

 

The prices for RAA is simple. If you've bought VH I'm sorry my pockets aren't deep enough to have any experience there.

 

Xy

 

 

[jabarte]

Having 30+ years of A/C inspection up my sleeve and having carried countless inspections, I have to say that any LAME that supports a less than 100 % accurate report in Loyalty to a customer to sell an aircraft should be struck off for life.

 

Zero tolerance.

 

Sadly it does happen.

 

I inspected a site unseen purchase many years ago that had a piece of timber batten tape bound around a main spar crack in a piper pawnee.

 

Whats worse is the guy that bought the plane flew it to our airfield for inspection !!

 

 

[BirdDog]

Thanksa plane with a 912 with 167 hours .............. and look like a fancy prop - sounds like a good buy to me Birddog

Thanks mate! Yep - I am pretty happy. The prop is a woodcomp in flight adjustable. Does a good job to get me cruising up at 120 pretty easily. :)

As mentioned above, I also have 3rd party insurance added, which insures the bird and liability etc etc. It can seem costly, but I guess insurance is the game of lotto you never want to win. Not that I have any finance on my plane, but if it gets written off or heavily damaged, I would like to replace it. :)

 

I agree with Jabarte!! A report should be non biased. I was satisfied when my own L2 came up with the same result as the one that did the initial condition report, not that I was expecting any biased on the one organised by the seller.

 

I have a mate in the market now for a bird and my advice will be the same to him. Take your time. Talk to the owner, and don't get attached to it at all. There will always be planes for sale.

 

 

[oskar_SYD]

It is interesting to see how VH experimental ones seems to be cheaper than RAA ones. In Europe it is opposite with Ultralights being a lot cheaper to run...

 

I will follow the discussion as I am in the process of buying VH experimental airplane at the moment.