Wind turbines

[biggles]

Facthunter said "I reckon we need Al smelters for self sufficiency. but there's never been much obvious effort by them to provide the power them selves."I worked on a power statation at Anglesea in Vic in the 60's. As far as I knew it was solely built to supply power to an Aluminium smelter. Here in Qld, the government built Gladstone power station and then sold it to private enterprise. When the government ran it, you could see the smoke plume all the way to Mackay, since private enterprise has it they have had to clean it up and now you hardly see any smoke.

You are correct Yenn . I was a consultant to Alcoa at their Anglesea Power Plant in '94,'95 and '96. Their installed capacity was 150Mw from a single Siemens turbo-generator with steam supplied from a natural convection tower type boiler, firing pulverised brown coal from the nearby mine. Most of the water was supplied from on-site bores. The coal had a high Sulphur content, so SO2, discharged into the atmosphere was always in issue with the environmentalists, and probably signed the final death knell for the station. As you state, the power plant did, in fact, supply the majority of the electricity to the Point Henry aluminium smelter ...... Bob

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Perhaps a good idea, but I doubt the amount of water that could be safely and economically accommodated up the top could store much power. Perhaps a lead weight raised via cables?German flywheel technology is probably more viable.

its also about being able to supply in surges above the just the capacity of the windmill

[Methusala]

My post #32 in this thread gives some reasons to be skeptical about the viability of Snowy 2.0. The cost would be horrendous and the long lead time requires an almost mystical faith in knowledge of tech 5+ years down the track. Better solutions than this will evolve.

 

 

[jetjr]

Capital is flowing into these projects because of subsidies by taxpayer and they can see we are too wedded to green philosophy to stop this cash flow. Blackouts can sway elections.

 

There is no such thing as spare or cheap power feom solar or wind. It should be used when its generated. If it is passed to storage only 60%? Is recovered

 

Solar and wind will have to be installed purely to recharge batteries. Entire new massive areas of panels or generators needed to run pumped hydro storage. Its power produced will be horribly expensive.

 

How big is 150 MW solar or wind install? Add 30% for inefficiency, double that for battery 50-60% discharge, then size to provide this then for 18 hrs per day? Whats it life at this duty?

 

Solar and wind are good thngs and they have a big role reducing greenhouse emissions. But only a small part of the whole puzzle. Problem is the cost. Neither solar or wind have lives much beyond 20 years and chemical batteries less. What do people think will happen many millions of tonnes of lithium cells once they are beyond service life.

 

Looking for a risk free source of power generation is up there with unicorns

 

 

[fly_tornado]

building wind and solar farms solves a lot more issues than building coal fired power stations. the WA liberal govt tried resurrecting an old coal, turns out that you can't build a power station as cheaply as what the coal lobby makes people believe.

 

WA taxpayers foot huge bill for botched power project | PerthNow

 

$310M builds a lot of wind and solar farms.

 

 

[jetjr]

Resurecting old generators is very likely to cost big and best you can end up with is a version of the old one.

 

New gas powered would be the go. We have plenty of gas, similar groups promoting renewables want to stop access to it.

 

Produce the bulk of power theough this and let solar and wind develop on own merits unsubsidized.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Here's another $90M that could have gone into producing that actually works like wind and solar. I think the all up spend by the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd-Abbott-Turnbull governments on "clean coal" is over $400M

 

Browned off: $90m 'clean coal' program ends as final project collapses

 

 

[facthunter]

They are wedged into giving things a try but the latest Coal to Hydrogen thing by Turnbull is utterly BS and doesn't add up at all .The CO2 and other undesirables level is through the roof. There's no evidence of any science based thinking in the COALYtion. Hydrogen CAN be produced cleanly. The Previous SA government was proceeding with it. but it's NOW not going to happen with the current government. The Latrobe Valley has a good future without Brown Coal and it's toxic legacy. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the chinese aren't mucking around with coal anymore, solar is the biggest new energy source

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

to give you an idea how quickly the market for wind power is evolving, yellow bars are new wind farms and the blue line is the total production

 

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

to give you an idea how quickly the market for wind power is evolving, yellow bars are new wind farms and the blue line is the total production...

Heh, yer still need a back up coal/diesel/gas power plant for when the wind don't blow...

I see India is ramping up its coal power plants.. A not so dead stranded asset: India chooses more coal, cancels 57 nuclear plants. « JoNova

 

And with the thread subject... "wind power creates a whole raft of wholly unnecessary risks to life and limb, not least for pilots and their passengers"

 

Fighting for Air: Communities Rally to Stop Wind Projects Wrecking Local Airports

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...And with the thread subject... "wind power creates a whole raft of wholly unnecessary risks to life and limb, not least for pilots and their passengers"Fighting for Air: Communities Rally to Stop Wind Projects Wrecking Local Airports

Thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic, FB. It makes sense to keep wind turbines well away from flight paths.A rare case of a community defending their airfield. It seems that local governments are quite happy to privatise their airport or sell it for real estate developments...but will not tolerate those evil wind farms.

 

 

[Methusala]

See my post#19 on the topic of localised wind effects around wind turbines. IMO not a big concern - and I have flown with them in "my backyard" for over 5 years. Don

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...There's no evidence of any science based thinking in the COALYtion. Hydrogen CAN be produced cleanly. The Previous SA government was proceeding with it. but it's NOW not going to happen with the current government. The Latrobe Valley has a good future without Brown Coal and it's toxic legacy. Nev

The party of Menzies that once championed market forces is now in the grip of idealogical dinosaurs- and their big business sponsors looking for more government handouts.The Latrobe Valley could learn from Newcastle, which was in a similar situation after it's steel industry closed down. Brian Howe, a minister in Bob Hawke's ALP government, injected $100 million into redeveloping the city, despite criticism from the LNP.

 

It was an enormous success, as private enterprise put in $900 million and transformed the rustbelt into a gleaming new city. Newcastle become a far more liveable and successful metropolis.

 

The role of Brian Howe has been forgotten.

 

 

[planedriver]

When on a short shore escursion in Portland, Sth Australia last year, our bus driver who had worked at Port Headland smelting plant for many years, took us to see wind generators close up. His mate who has two on his property said they take about 25yrs to pay for themselves providing they have no breakdowns and are not real flash in calm conditions. He didn't care because what he was paid to have them on his land, paid for two real good holidays each year.

 

A few months ago in Sth West England you could see where so many farmers were no longer growing crops, and field after field was filled with thousands of solar panels. No doubt financially advantageous for the farmers, but to replace what was originally grown there, now has to be imported from somewhere else.

 

In many cases overcoming one shortfall in the supply chain, creates other problems of equal importance.

 

 

[johnm]

$6 to $ 8k per annum per turbine for rent - ATO probably would like some of the income as tax though

 

 

[KRviator]

$6 to $ 8k per annum per turbine for rent - ATO probably would like some of the income as tax though

Pity it'd cost $20,000 to keep the cows away from it and look after the access road to the base of the turbine.

 

[fly_tornado]

When on a short shore escursion in Portland, Sth Australia last year, our bus driver who had worked at Port Headland smelting plant for many years, took us to see wind generators close up. His mate who has two on his property said they take about 25yrs to pay for themselves providing they have no breakdowns and are not real flash in calm conditions.

Energy companies are world leaders at tax evasion. They won't tell old mate how much money they really are making because he would want a bigger cut.

Modern wind turbine is designed to churn out 3.6MW at 8c a kw, its a nice earner

 

 

[johnm]

probably not your land I'd guess - power Co would have a lease over it and they'd do any track / fence improvements

 

 

[johnm]

Modern wind turbine is designed to churn out 3.6MW at 8c a kw, its a nice earner

I'm no expert but google says 2.5 to 3 mW wind turbine will produce 6,000,000 ! kWhrs per year @ 8 cents = $ 480,000 p annum ! (its a wonder they can make any money at all)

 

 

[fly_tornado]

$480k is barely scraping by

 

have a look at sapphire, 18 months from first shovel to fully operational

 

Sapphire – A New Future

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Even in the Trump heartland they are ditching coal to get into wind

 

Xcel’s new vision: 85% carbon free by 2030 - CUB Minnesota

 

 

[Marty_d]

Even in the Trump heartland they are ditching coal to get into windXcel’s new vision: 85% carbon free by 2030 - CUB Minnesota

Trump's doing his best to stop progress, I hear he slapped 30% tariff on solar equipment coming from China.

 

 

[Flying Binghi]

Of interest. The Pprunne forum is ultimately owned by a company that also has an interest in wind turbines in Australia...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

you can watch the national energy market in real time OpenNEM: An Open Platform for National Electricity Market Data