New fuel laws

[jetjr]

https://www.casa.gov.au/publications-and-resources/standard-page/fuel-requirements-australian-aircraft

[spacesailor]

Surly "Mayday" is not the correct call !, I've been taught it's "PAN", when not at "imminent risk to Life. 

 

After all sailplanes do not have to carry much in the way of fuel-reserves, Lunch maybe.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[coljones]

Surly "Mayday" is not the correct call !, I've been taught it's "PAN", when not at "imminent risk to Life. After all sailplanes do not have to carry much in the way of fuel-reserves, Lunch maybe.

 

spacesailor

How much of that 30 mins do you actually have left? How imminent is "imminent"?

 

 

[Yenn]

Mayday is what CASA want us to use. I would have assumed that Pan would be the obvious choice, Maybe CASA had forgotten that we have Pan and Securete as alternatives.

 

We still don't know how much fuel we have to carry. Is that 30 minutes of cruise power fuel or 30 mins of holding power fuel? Not that it makes much difference to my Corby.

 

 

[Fred]

Securite???  I have only heard this term used with boating.

 

 

[kgwilson]

I don't like going anywhere without plenty of fuel to get back to any aerodrome I have passed if everything turns to custard near the destination. It isn't a big problem for me as I can carry 170 litres if I fill both wing tanks as well as the main fuselage tank. My fuel burn can be anywhere between 14 & 29 litres an hour depending on whether I am cruising slowly or going flat out. Like the saying goes, "the only time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire". Mayday when you still have 30 minutes of whatever that means seems a bit dumb.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Mayday is a ridiculous call with 30 minutes remaining. 

 

 

[jetjr]

When are you allowed to use the 30 min reserve, after you mayday and land on a “safe” paddock?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Mayday.mayday. Mayday. fuel.

 

aircraft calling Mayday, what is your location?

 

turning final at my destination, but the fuel management display shows I have 29minutes remaining fuel.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Mayday.mayday. Mayday. fuel.aircraft calling Mayday, what is your location?

 

turning final at my destination, but the fuel management display shows I have 29minutes remaining fuel.

I suppose that call is made on 126,7?

 

kaz

 

 

[SSCBD]

Regarding RAA aircraft  -  Think of all the paper work and the grilling you will have with a Mayday call.

 

Again a pan call is fair enough if genuine problem and aircraft is not near a runway   - but if you have an airstrip available 10 mins away  - would you REALLY hit the radio button.

 

Be Honest! 

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Typical CASA stupidity. 

 

 

[kgwilson]

Regarding RAA aircraft  -  Think of all the paper work and the grilling you will have with a Mayday call.Again a pan call is fair enough if genuine problem and aircraft is not near a runway   - but if you have an airstrip available 10 mins away  - would you REALLY hit the radio button.

 

Be Honest! 

No. No one who is sane would.

 

 

[jetjr]

If you dont now youve broken the law

 

if you do youve broken the law

 

 

[Downunder]

No. No one who is sane would.

Plenty of ignorant people out there who blindly follow rules and regulations, thinking it will save their ass.... "Fools", I call them.... 

 

 

[old man emu]

Copied from the CASA link

 

"Prior to the rule change, pilots and operators had to calculate fuel to accommodate two contingencies; engine failure and depressurisation, each with different reserve requirements.

 

The new rules make this calculation simpler. Now the ‘additional fuel’ calculation is based whichever of the contingencies requires the greater amount of fuel plus a reserve fuel of 15 minutes plus an approach and landing allowance."

 

Here's the problem: Which requires more fuel to deal with in a two-seat, single-engined aircraft restricted to day VMC conditions, cabin depressurisation or engine failure?

 

I can depressurise the cabin by opening a window, or fresh air vent. In the event of engine failure, fuel requirements tend to drop to zero litres per hour.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

So the path this has taken and will take us is obvious to the people who live in the real world. 

 

CASA - “the rules have been in place for years so we must change them!  Let’s give the job to someone who has no idea what this real situation involves. 

 

Tell him to make a “One rule fits all!” Regardless of whether it will work or not introduce it without consultation. 

 

When stakeholders point out the problems either ignore or threaten them.

 

When the problems eventuate as predicted make an announcement that the rule will be reviewed. 

 

Several years later go back to the original rules.

 

 

[djpacro]

Regardless of what I think about the new rules (the NPRM process has finished), I try to follow rules and it won't cost me anything to call "MINIMUM FUEL" when inbound to Moorabbin (as I am normally close to reserves on an aerobatic flight, being limited by maximum aerobatic weight) as required by the new law.

 

The pilot in command must request delay information from ATC when unforeseen factors may result ...

I can't image what unforeseen factors there may be so I will be obliged to ask the Tower about delay information.

On the odd occasion when my landing is delayed it may turn out that I calculate that I'll eat into my reserve before landing and I will be required to call "MAYDAY". 

 

The emergency fuel declaration is a distress message.

I probably won't be distressed as a pleasant and safe landing is almost certainly assured within the next 30 minutes. Perhaps a bit of paperwork for me to deal with afterwards but that's OK. Airservices will have paperwork too. We'll both be obliged to report it to the ATSB.

 

 

[facthunter]

The depressurized PNR is usually the most critical of the normal possibilities with commercial Jets. Two engine planes should land at the nearest suitable landing facility, if one engine fails. If you have more than two that is not a requirement. . None of this is applicable to US people. HOWEVER...

 

  If you are low on fuel you run the risk of some air getting into the fuel system at some power or attitude situations so you can have an engine failure due fuel starvation, but still have fuel still remaining in the tank(s). With this one you should KNOW YOUR PLANE.. with regard to USEABLE fuel. If you can't be sure of being able to get it you can't regard it as available or useable.

 

   Most U/L fuel gauges are not accurate. You will be supplementing with usage estimates which may also not be consistent. You are supposed to use reliable, and proven  over  a fair period "actual" figures and be able to justify them with records or a higher POH sourced figure, for flight planning. Holding can use several usage figures Use the APPROVED ones for your type and  particular operation. If you carry fuel for holding THAT will be at the holding rate, but if you use  say 10% applied to the cruise part of the flight , THAT will be at the cruise rate & higher than holding rate.

 

    Talking to people who are on the ground  is justified/ required if you are  a Potential hazard to others, and if it will aid search and recovery etc But "they" (the people you are talking to)  can't fly up there and take over  physically, even if they were trained so if the skill required is of a high order and TIME IS SHORT, don't distract yourself too much from the job at Hand, and manage to <mod censored> it up. A plane having a situation of imminent fuel exhaustion IS a hazard for itself and others in a busy environment.. You will get a priority, so I guess that justifies the  Mayday call in a general sense although an engine failure is not entitled to be regarded as a" not likely to survive", emergency the way we are trained, in the aircraft we fly,  provided we are in a suitable environment, our planes have low landing speed and energy levels, and can utilize paddock roads etc. It probably should NOT be regarded as "NORMAL " either.  Nev

 

 

[Jaba-who]

The depressurized PNR is usually the most critical of the normal possibilities with commercial Jets. Two engine planes should land at the nearest suitable landing facility, if one engine fails. If you have more than two that is not a requirement. . None of this is applicable to US people. HOWEVER...  If you are low on fuel you run the risk of some air getting into the fuel system at some power or attitude situations so you can have an engine failure due fuel starvation, but still have fuel still remaining in the tank(s). With this one you should KNOW YOUR PLANE.. with regard to USEABLE fuel. If you can't be sure of being able to get it you can't regard it as available or useable.

 

   Most U/L fuel gauges are not accurate. You will be supplementing with usage estimates which may also not be consistent. You are supposed to use reliable, and proven  over  a fair period "actual" figures and be able to justify them with records or a higher POH sourced figure, for flight planning. Holding can use several usage figures Use the APPROVED ones for you type and  particular operation. If you carry fuel for holding THAT will be at the holding rate, but if you use  say 10% applied to the cruise part of the flight , THAT will be at the cruise rate & higher than holding rate.

 

    Talking to people who are on the ground  is justified/ required if you are  a Potential hazard to others, and if it will aid search and recovery etc But "they" (the people you are talking to)  can't fly up there and take over  physically, even if they were trained so if the skill required is of a high order and TIME IS SHORT, don't distract yourself too much from the job at Hand, and manage to <mod censored> it up. A plane having a situation of imminent fuel exhaustion IS a hazard for itself and others in a busy environment.. You will get a priority, so I guess that justifies the  Mayday call in a general sense although an engine failure is not entitled to be regarded as a" not likely to survive", emergency the way we are trained, in the aircraft we fly,  provided we are in a suitable environment, our planes have low landing speed and energy levels, and can utilize paddock roads etc. It probably should NOT be regarded as "NORMAL " either.  Nev

I have to disagree on some of your agreement with the new rule .

In our sphere of influence we are NOT adopting unusual attitudes. These rules do NOT apply to only aircraft at risk, to pilots conducting operations where this is a risk and do NOT only apply to sutuations of an aircraft having imminent fuel exhaustion. 

 

They apply to perfectly safe situations as well. They kick in  as soon as you fly straight and level, sedate flying and you suddenly have only 29 minutes 59 seconds of fuel remaining. 

 

There is no consideration of any other factor that may or may not actually produce any dangerous situation.

 

The vast majority of situations where pilots will now be required to make emergency calls will have NO, absolutely NO,  risk of danger.

 

They will be the situation of edging into a reserve in situations exactly what the reserve is supposed to be for - the marginal increase in fuel use due to factors like unforecasted   headwinds where the reserve will get you home without problem, because that’s why it’s there. 

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Securite???  I have only heard this term used with boating.

I’ve never heard of it all. 

Its not in any aviation laws I have read. 

 

 

[poteroo]

For the last 55 years I've been carrying far too much fuel as a 'fixed reserve' of 45 minutes at 65% cruise power settings.  Now, our omnipotent and all-knowing regulator says that I can reduce my reserve by only using 30 minutes.  And this is a safety initiative?   I can only wonder what will come next!!

 

happy days,

 

 

[jetjr]

Was it a regulation to carry 45 min or a recommendation?

 

now its reg with penalties

 

i always carry plenty but dont like regulation when theres no need

 

 

[kaz3g]

For the last 55 years I've been carrying far too much fuel as a 'fixed reserve' of 45 minutes at 65% cruise power settings.  Now, our omnipotent and all-knowing regulator says that I can reduce my reserve by only using 30 minutes.  And this is a safety initiative?   I can only wonder what will come next!!happy days,

Hi Poteroo

 

and I hope you and you family and many friends are safe and well?

 

yes, I feel that this is another poor decision taken by those who would have us all the same despite the diversity of aircraft and operating conditions.

 

i work on 60 minutes notional reserve because I have an antiquated float gauge on the top tank and none in the belly, and I don’t have a fuel flow instrument.

 

personally, I start to sweat if I fly for more than 2.5 hours and begin eating into that notional 60 minutes but I suppose now I can do 3 hours and all will be well..

 

regards

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Was it a regulation to carry 45 min or a recommendation?now its reg with penalties

 

i always carry plenty but dont like regulation when theres no need

It was a regulation for GA. I don’t know about RAAus. Private ops had to have 45 mind reserve and commercial ops had to have 45 mins plus a variable reserve ( I don’t recall exactly what the variable requirement is as I’m not commercial) 

then on top of that if the destination airport has an INTER weather forecast then need 30 mins extra and if a TEMPO then you need and extra 60 minutes reserve. 

 

The diffrence now is that once you reach your reserve you have to tell the world about it by calling Mayday!  Before this you could just quietly use your reserve knowing that you had it for a reason.