Glide approach as standard practice

[BirdDog]

Using the radio correctly (and strategically when necessary), along with strobe lights & landing lights, should help with “see and be seen” around aerodromes.  Occasionally extending a circuit leg to accommodate others, or observing “fly neighbourly” circuits don’t necessarily preclude my steeper power-off glide on final.  As always, one needs to keep a sharp lookout especially around aerodromes, both landing and departing. 

It still surprises me at the lack of radio calls by some pilots.  I just don't get it.

 

 

[dsam]

It still surprises me at the lack of radio calls by some pilots.  I just don't get it.

In some busy training aerodromes with lots of students in circuit, it's understandable to keep calls brief, clear, and to a minimum (commensurate with safe practice).  This forum has lots of respondents rightfully critical of poor radio practice (uhms & stumbles) - not knowing exactly what to say before keying the mic, and not listening before transmitting so as to not over-transmit on top of somebody else's calls (my pet peeve!)

Having said that, many times there is none, or only light traffic at an aerodrome, and making good brief radio calls in circuit is no inconvenience to others, especially if you suspect there is potential for conflict or confusion when you hear others flying in the vicinity, or see someone taxiing towards the runway (who might have just turned their radio on & missed your last calls).

 

 

[BirdDog]

Yep.  I witnessed a classic example of where it could all go bad.

 

I was at the Airfield and when I am prepping etc, I turn my hand held on and listen to the radio while I am getting ready.  Now I knew there was a bird in the circuit because I watched him go up and I could hear him.  Now he assumed as there was nobody else around, he wouldn't bother making calls while he bashed a few circuits.  Then.... I heard the distinct sound of a 2nd aircraft.  He, probably thought, because he could not hear any calls, there was nobody around, so he just blasted right over the AD (and through the circuit).

 

When the other guy came down, he was furious the 2nd guy didn't make an inbound call, to which I stated, "if you were calling your corners, I bet he would have"

 

Both assumed as there was silence, there was nobody else around.   It is dangerous to assume.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

It still surprises me at the lack of radio calls by some pilots.  I just don't get it.

 

 

Yep! its now up the the pilot to decide where & when he/she makes the calls. BirDog has just given a classic example of where this concept/idea falls down.

 

I believe the change in legislation is in response to complaints about pilots "jamming" the frequency with unnecessary calls.

 

I am in favour of at the very least least:

 

• A 10 mile inbound/overfly call
   
   
   
  
• An overhead the field at  min 1,500 - 2,000 ft above with circ. joining & landing intentions (everyone will know where to look/find you).
   
   
   
  
• Base (everyone will know where to look/find you)
   
   
   
  
• Final (everyone will know where to look/find you)
   
   
   
  
•  
   
   
   
  

 

 

Prior to TO

 

• There should be a taxi call referring to Rnw back track/enter.
   
   
   
  
• Line up  Rnw ? with intentions (remain in circ or depart on named circ leg).
   
   
   
  
• Rolling Rnw ?
   
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

For my part - slightly too many calls, is  far better than too little/non.

 

 

[kgwilson]

I always make a 10 mile call & keep a listening watch. I then always call when overhead at 1500 to check the windsock, announce joining for rwy XX & if there is no-one else around or in the circuit do not make any more calls. If there are others around & not necessarily in the circuit I'll call downwind, base and final. The calls must be clear brief and necessary otherwise shut up. CTAF 126.7 is far too busy for idle chit chat or long winded ill thought through calls. Agree with the takeoff calls SD.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Using the radio correctly (and strategically when necessary), along with strobe lights & landing lights, should help with “see and be seen” around aerodromes.  Occasionally extending a circuit leg to accommodate others, or observing “fly neighbourly” circuits don’t necessarily preclude my steeper power-off glide on final.  As always, one needs to keep a sharp lookout especially around aerodromes, both landing and departing. 

 

 

Agreed! but as usual have an opinion here - "strobe lighting" - its a bit like having all those extra Christmas tree lights on a truck - minimal if any benefit in good viability (pilots love "landing lights on" as part of the pre landing check list) to other aircraft.

 

May enhance a ground observers "acquisition of target"  - certainly a benefit in low light/darkness (RAA not supposed to go there) but otherwise just a fun addition to your aircrafts real plane look.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I am in favour of at the very least least:

 

• A 10 mile inbound/overfly call
   
   
   
  
• An overhead the field at  min 1,500 - 2,000 ft above with circ. joining & landing intentions (everyone will know where to look/find you).
   
   
   
  
• Base (everyone will know where to look/find you
   
   
   
  
• Final (everyone will know where to look...
   
   
   
  

That's a lot of calls, Skip. I'm guilty of never making a call on final (unless an obvious conflict is likely).

I'm too damn busy getting it right- that turn into final is where too many aeroplanes fall out of the sky.

 

 

[derekliston]

I call taxiing, entering & backtracking if required, line up and rolling. Then downwind and base. Don’t normally call final unless I hear other traffic. I spend a lot of time at the airfield listening to my airband radio and it amazes me how many aircraft either give no calls, wrong calls, or stumbling hesitant calls.

 

 

[dsam]

Thread drift....?   Yes, I’m guilty too

 

 

[skippydiesel]

That's a lot of calls, Skip. I'm guilty of never making a call on final (unless an obvious conflict is likely).I'm too damn busy getting it right- that turn into final is where too many aeroplanes fall out of the sky.

Fair comment - however I think you get my drift - Make calls when you are somewhere in "space" where the receiver can easily "scan" for your aircraft. Never assume you are alone up there - the other pilot has made the same assumption.

 

 

[kgwilson]

There are NO mandatory calls in the circuit. You must however establish there is no-one else around & that is done by the 10 mile inbound and overhead joining calls. Hear nothing, see nothing, don't make any more calls. Hear something, see something, make appropriate calls.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

There are NO mandatory calls in the circuit. You must however establish there is no-one else around & that is done by the 10 mile inbound and overhead joining calls. Hear nothing, see nothing, don't make any more calls. Hear something, see something, make appropriate calls.

 

 

You are absolutly correct UNFORTUNATLY the formally quoted BirdDog  scenerio can happen - it is far safer & considerat to make some basic calls, even if you think you are all alone up there. A lot can happen in the time between your 10 mile inbound call and touch down - Biggles might have missed your inbound call and be proceeding under the assumption that there are no Bogies/Kgwilsons in the area.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

If you are hearing no calls there is no radio congestion and you are free to make a call at every turn, no harm done.

 

 

[kgwilson]

You are absolutly correct UNFORTUNATLY the formally quoted BirdDog  scenerio can happen - it is far safer & considerat to make some basic calls, even if you think you are all alone up there. A lot can happen in the time between your 10 mile inbound call and touch down - Biggles might have missed your inbound call and be proceeding under the assumption that there are no Bogies/Kgwilsons in the area.

If Biggles is there and missed my 10 mile call he should hear my joining call after I've checked the windsock overhead the aerodrome. It is basically  "aerodrome name traffic, Sierra 8664, overhead field at 1500 feet, joining crosswind for runway 12, full stop, aerodrome name". If I hear nothing then why bother with any extra calls to no-one. I'd sooner concentrate on the landing process and keep an eagle eye out for dipstick bogie who, if he is there hasn't made any calls.

 

 

[SSCBD]

And remember some guys who don't have radio, OR its broken OR  are on the wrong frequency (FINGER PROBLEM),  OR forgot to change to CTAF.  This happens sometime so always have a long hard lookout in circuit.  

 

AND then you get the guys who are trying out for a commercial radio station, on the bloody thing every 2 mins.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

If I hear nothing then why bother with any extra calls

Just remember part of good airman-ship is listening out - hearing someone in the circuit of a field you are still 15 + miles from gives the arriving pilot valuable information about circuit congestion, type of activity, active runway, departures (possibly in his direction) and even type of aircraft - all of which will help him/her prepare for arrival.

 

What cost is there in broadcasting your intentions ??

 

 

[kgwilson]

I've already broadcast my intentions twice with no response. How many times do I need to do this & what is the point of making any more? As stated I would prefer to keep a good lookout rather than make superfluous calls. 126.7 can be busy and while I may not hear distant broadcasts they may hear mine. I am always keeping a good listening watch as already stated in post 56.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Hi all, first up, thoughts and prayers to all those affected by the accident at Moorabbin last week. I am not here to speculate or go into details on that particular incident, however it did get me thinking (as a relatively low time RPL pilot) about losing power on final at a built-up aerodrome and what options there are to ensure the best possible outcome.The most obvious thing to me seems to make it standard practice to effectively perform a glide approach from downwind, or turn base a lot earlier than "normal". Does anyone do this or teach this? I'm guessing it would cause problems in the circuit being in a different pattern to everybody else all the time. What other issues are there? I'm lucky to fly out at Lilydale where there are plenty of off-field options if the dreaded did happen, but i still cant help feeling sometimes when I turn base at the "correct" point (45 degrees from the threshold or thereabouts), that if i lost my engine at that point or anywhere up to final on the "correct" glidepath, it definitely wouldnt be a certainty that I'd make it back to the field, whereas if i'd just turned base earlier and set up for a glide approach, it would be a lot better situation.

 

I'm guessing the dangers would be a much steeper approach path, possibly the chance of coming in too fast?

I was taught that type of approach in the early 1970s, by Alan Basket Esq. An extremely GOOD flying Instructor based at Casey Airfield, Berwick, Vic in the very early 1970s. Prior to that, I was taught EXACTLY the same thing during 80 hours of flying by a Gent who flew Hurricanes in WW2. . .whilst he was teaching me to fly a DH82A in the UK. The Glide approach is your friend. He said,. . get accustomed to how your aeroplane flies, and especially,. . . how it flies without power. Both Alan, AND Uncle George ( The Hurricane bloke ) said the same thing. George always said that he was a below average pilot, as he got shot down twice,. . .but nowadays, . . being shot down needs to be removed from your checklist as an unnecessary distraction. . .( unless of course, you wish to do some low flying in Iraqi, Syrian, or Iranian airspace. . . )

 

LOSING height quickly, is not a problem,. . .Height is Easy Peasy to dump. . . 'S' turns, . .Sideslipping,. .. but Gaining it after wasting it,. . . with a dead engine, certainly IS.

 

I was always taught to plan my approach from Downwind, not Base leg,. . .and this has worked well for me for over forty nine years of flying. . .I have yet to crash through the roof of a building near to a runway threshold. . .or a hedge. . .

 

And don't fret about 'Coming in too fast' either,. . .If you learn the SideSlip technique. . . .this will not increase your threshold speed at all, but it WILL increase your approach angle if you think that you are too far above the approach path.. . .After a while, you can teach your underpants to sense this and it becomes 'Natural' . ( And then,. . .there's always the VSI clock. . that might help too )

 

Enjoy and don't worry so much. . .

 

 

[facthunter]

Sideslipping the DH 82 is pretty normal and you do it to be able to see as much as anything else. You fly it from the rear seat and can't see much over the nose, (or past the lower wings either). . Flaring off a sideslip is for when you get it pretty much "covered" and have had lots of practice.. Three point was the normal technique. With the tailskid and the tail firmly on the ground you don't roll far. (on grass) . Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Sideslipping the DH 82 is pretty normal and you do it to be able to see as much as anything else. You fly it from the rear seat and can't see much over the nose, (or past the lower wings either). . Flaring off a sideslip is for when you get it pretty much "covered" and have had lots of practice.. Three point was the normal technique. With the tailskid and the tail firmly on the ground you don't roll far. (on grass) . Nev

I would never argue with you Nev. I would just add, that, when flying the DH82A ( VH-TIG) at Berwick, Vic, with the redoubtable David Squirrel [ Cropduster Pilot ] the runway at Casey Airfield was medium density gravel.. . .with a 'Bit of a Hump' at the '12' end' . . .this tended to slow the machine quite nicely. David complemented me at my seemingly 'Very Quick' conversion to the Tiger, but I had not told him at that stage, that I had been sitting n that rear seat for quite a few hours some 14 years before. . . ( Yes,. . naughty )

 

I must also add here that all of my landings whilst flying the Tiger in the UK with Uncle George,. . were on GRASS strips. . . .

 

When the Pilot's strike happened . . .I can't recall the exact year, several of us 'Caseyites' from Groupair flew into Tulla, and after I had landed on 09 in the Tiger,. . .I got a severe Bollocking for scratching the runway surface with the tailskid. I was informed that I'd have to pay for the damage. . .Lt. Colonel Keith Hatfield, . . ( Lovely Bloke - he Really Was ) the owner of Groupair Flying school,. . . . sorted this problem on my behalf, and gave me a secondary bollocking for this incident. I'd foolishly asked Tulla Tower for a grass landing,. . .but this was refused, due to lighting cables and other obstructions, ( as I discovered later ) Interestingly though, they never said anything about me landing on the hard runway in the first instance. . .they COULD have told me to bugger off. . .but they didn't. On reflection, I wish that they had, as I was really sorry that Keith got it in the ear because of my stupidity. ( We were all young once I guess. . .) The ATC Officers were blameless, as, perhaps none of them on that day. . . . knew that the Tiger had no tailwheel. . . I have to add that the opprobrium occurred AFTER we had left,. . . .otherwise, they would probably NOT have allowed me to depart from Rwy 16 after the wind had changed whilst we were having Brekky in the terminal. . .

 

Ahhh. . . Memories.

 

 

[seqfta]

Hi all, first up, thoughts and prayers to all those affected by the accident at Moorabbin last week. I am not here to speculate or go into details on that particular incident, however it did get me thinking (as a relatively low time RPL pilot) about losing power on final at a built-up aerodrome and what options there are to ensure the best possible outcome. The most obvious thing to me seems to make it standard practice to effectively perform a glide approach from downwind, or turn base a lot earlier than "normal". Does anyone do this or teach this? I'm guessing it would cause problems in the circuit being in a different pattern to everybody else all the time. What other issues are there? I'm lucky to fly out at Lilydale where there are plenty of off-field options if the dreaded did happen, but i still cant help feeling sometimes when I turn base at the "correct" point (45 degrees from the threshold or thereabouts), that if i lost my engine at that point or anywhere up to final on the "correct" glidepath, it definitely wouldnt be a certainty that I'd make it back to the field, whereas if i'd just turned base earlier and set up for a glide approach, it would be a lot better situation.

 

I'm guessing the dangers would be a much steeper approach path, possibly the chance of coming in too fast?

Hi all, first up, thoughts and prayers to all those affected by the accident at Moorabbin last week. I am not here to speculate or go into details on that particular incident, however it did get me thinking (as a relatively low time RPL pilot) about losing power on final at a built-up aerodrome and what options there are to ensure the best possible outcome. The most obvious thing to me seems to make it standard practice to effectively perform a glide approach from downwind, or turn base a lot earlier than "normal". Does anyone do this or teach this? I'm guessing it would cause problems in the circuit being in a different pattern to everybody else all the time. What other issues are there? I'm lucky to fly out at Lilydale where there are plenty of off-field options if the dreaded did happen, but i still cant help feeling sometimes when I turn base at the "correct" point (45 degrees from the threshold or thereabouts), that if i lost my engine at that point or anywhere up to final on the "correct" glidepath, it definitely wouldnt be a certainty that I'd make it back to the field, whereas if i'd just turned base earlier and set up for a glide approach, it would be a lot better situation.

 

I'm guessing the dangers would be a much steeper approach path, possibly the chance of coming in too fast?

Hi all, first up, thoughts and prayers to all those affected by the accident at Moorabbin last week. I am not here to speculate or go into details on that particular incident, however it did get me thinking (as a relatively low time RPL pilot) about losing power on final at a built-up aerodrome and what options there are to ensure the best possible outcome.

 

 

The old adage for approach and finals "power controls rate of descent and nose attitude controls airspeed !

 

Yep , it does work but it's conditional .

 

For this method to work you need to be configured somewhere on the negative side of the "lift/drag curve because if your on the positive side and you apply power you will increase airspeed .

 

The most obvious thing to me seems to make it standard practice to effectively perform a glide approach from downwind, or turn base a lot earlier than "normal". Does anyone do this or teach this? I'm guessing it would cause problems in the circuit being in a different pattern to everybody else all the time. What other issues are there? I'm lucky to fly out at Lilydale where there are plenty of off-field options if the dreaded did happen, but i still cant help feeling sometimes when I turn base at the "correct" point (45 degrees from the threshold or thereabouts), that if i lost my engine at that point or anywhere up to final on the "correct" glidepath, it definitely wouldnt be a certainty that I'd make it back to the field, whereas if i'd just turned base earlier and set up for a glide approach, it would be a lot better situation.

 

I'm guessing the dangers would be a much steeper approach path, possibly the chance of coming in too fast?