Costs RA vs GA

[pmccarthy]

I was GA then RA then currently GA again, could go back for medical reasons. I found the RA running costs cheaper but the big item is depreciation. It costs a lot over five years, even at 50 hours per year. An old PA28 or C172 will depreciate very little over the same five years and 250 hours if you start with one with a few hundred hours left on the engine. And a new RA will tie up $100k plus whereas the GA plane will be half that. And you get four seats and luggage capacity.

 

Sorry I am off topic re the OP query about doing it in the same plane.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

$80 a month for hangerage? Wow move over that's cheap as chips!!

Yep. Never heard of hangarage that cheap before.

In the Atherton area the going rate is about $300 a month.

 

When I was in Cairns about 5 years ago the cheapest I heard of was about $350a month.

 

I doubt you’d get anything for $80a month in my part of the state now.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

It's an interesting debate the GA RA route, didn't have much choice 30-40 years ago so it is great to have choice in an ever increasing past time such as Pvt aviation. As we all know anything to do with aviation is a trade off. GA gives you a lot more advantages but at a cost. RA is what I would call mostly more grass roots flying. One day I shall look into RA and probably go down that track but fot now it's GA all the way, whilst I can afford it, oh as well as learning more about RA form some of you good folk-:)

 

 

[jetjr]

Not convinced some of the conclusions about aircraft value and depreciation.

 

Yes a new $100 K LSA is more than a 30+ year old 172 and a new 172 is a little bit more.........., Id also expect the cheap 172 might have a few expensive costs in the pipeline.

 

There's plenty of solid older RAA aircraft under half that.

 

As far as servicing, say, Jabiru offer 100 hrly from $850 (well under $2500 Erik indicates for GA). Top end overhaul is ~ $5K.

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

Not convinced some of the conclusions about aircraft value and depreciation.Yes a new $100 K LSA is more than a 30+ year old 172 and a new 172 is a little bit more.........., Id also expect the cheap 172 might have a few expensive costs in the pipeline.There's plenty of solid older RAA aircraft under half that.

 

As far as servicing, say, Jabiru offer 100 hrly from $850 (well under $2500 Erik indicates for GA). Top end overhaul is ~ $5K.

I have to qualify that $2500 annual for the 172, though. I am pedantic when it comes to my own backside, so the plane gets new sparkplugs every annual, all new filters, in fact, anything that my friend the LAME can change with new, (consumables) gets changed.So, on a normal annual on a 172 or a PA28, you could probably get away with a lot less.

 

Erik in Oz.

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

I have to qualify that $2500 annual for the 172, though. I am pedantic when it comes to my own backside, so the plane gets new sparkplugs every annual, all new filters, in fact, anything that my friend the LAME can change with new, (consumables) gets changed.So, on a normal annual on a 172 or a PA28, you could probably get away with a lot less.Erik in Oz.

I just checked the invoice for the last annual on the 172.....$2215. That includes the cost of an avionics person to fix a fault on the transponder. Now, in anyone`s language, that is not too bad.Erik in Oz.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

My last annual on the PA28 was just over $2000. As well as replacement consumables it included

 

Altimeter calibration & Pitot-Static leak check. Main Strut seal replaced & strut serviced, cracks in Carby heat shroud patched, Carby heat Valve shaft bushings replaced & Tube in RH main tyre replaced.

 

 

[jetjr]

Yep and thats my approach too, that 100 hrly for a 4 cyl Jabiru would include all that too.

 

Can also perform it yourself in RAA on many aircraft and suggest a few hundred dollars max

 

 

[skippydiesel]

It seem to me that very few of the contributors to this discussion are actually comparing like costs eg

 

COMPARABLE

 

Acquisition cost,

 

Depreciation

 

Maintenance annual

 

Maintenance periodic (calendar life replacement and or service requirements)

 

Maintenance as a cost per hour (not the same as above, only incurred when you start the Hobbs )

 

Fuel cost per hour

 

Annual insurance (covering third party and hull - equivalent to auto comprehensive).

 

Most of the navigation & communication systems can be compared if similar in capability.

 

Safety costs - if both fitted with ballistic parachutes

 

Compulsory registration/certification fees

 

NOT SO EASILY COMPARABLE

 

Experimental V Factory built

 

Things like hangarage will depend on where you keep your aircraft (major airfield or in the farm shed).

 

Even the availability of additional seats is a bit of a suspect advantage (how often do you actually fill them or use the available "payload" ?)

 

Who you get to do your servicing/maintenance, is a major factor in overall running costs (especially if you do your own) and is certainly one way of keeping costs down but it's a bit similar to the hanger location comment above.

 

Cost of pilot's license/certificate when linked to insurance and or regulatory requirements for medical/BFR/frequency/training - gets very messy.

 

I FEEL that my move from GA to RA has reduced my costs markedly, but in truth I have not actually sat down and compared the real costs.

 

My 2 seat aircraft cruises at 100 knots indicated, sipping well under 13L/H or 7-8L/hr stooging around my local area. I choose to use 98 RON @ ULP costing me about $1.54/L ($11- 20/hr).

 

I do about two 50 hr oil changes per annum, using 3 L of oil each, at about $16/L (when delivered) + a $22/oil filter

 

Sundry other stuff (spark plugs every 100 hrs @ $6/plug x 8, fuel filters $30 if I change all of them) air filter cleaner/ dressing. Then there is the 5 year rubber replacement at about $750 + coolant $13.

 

A whole heap of other costs should be included - like tools, tyres, prop replacement, transponder check, electronic repairs/replacement, etc etc. Too much to think about but most (not all) way cheaper than GA.

 

My gut feeling is I am financially way ahead - it's been years since I was able to fill a four seater and my Zephyr is so much more fun to fly than a regular spam can.

 

In end the pilot will justify the cost of the aircraft he/she wants to fly.

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

It seem to me that very few of the contributors to this discussion are actually comparing like costs egCOMPARABLE

Acquisition cost,

 

Depreciation

 

Maintenance annual

 

Maintenance periodic (calendar life replacement and or service requirements)

 

Maintenance as a cost per hour (not the same as above, only incurred when you start the Hobbs )

 

Fuel cost per hour

 

Annual insurance (covering third party and hull - equivalent to auto comprehensive).

 

Most of the navigation & communication systems can be compared if similar in capability.

 

Safety costs - if both fitted with ballistic parachutes

 

Compulsory registration/certification fees

 

NOT SO EASILY COMPARABLE

 

Experimental V Factory built

 

Things like hangarage will depend on where you keep your aircraft (major airfield or in the farm shed).

 

Even the availability of additional seats is a bit of a suspect advantage (how often do you actually fill them or use the available "payload" ?)

 

Who you get to do your servicing/maintenance, is a major factor in overall running costs (especially if you do your own) and is certainly one way of keeping costs down but it's a bit similar to the hanger location comment above.

 

Cost of pilot's license/certificate when linked to insurance and or regulatory requirements for medical/BFR/frequency/training - gets very messy.

 

I FEEL that my move from GA to RA has reduced my costs markedly, but in truth I have not actually sat down and compared the real costs.

 

My 2 seat aircraft cruises at 100 knots indicated, sipping well under 13L/H or 7-8L/hr stooging around my local area. I choose to use 98 RON @ ULP costing me about $1.54/L ($11- 20/hr).

 

I do about two 50 hr oil changes per annum, using 3 L of oil each, at about $16/L (when delivered) + a $22/oil filter

 

Sundry other stuff (spark plugs every 100 hrs @ $6/plug x 8, fuel filters $30 if I change all of them) air filter cleaner/ dressing. Then there is the 5 year rubber replacement at about $750 + coolant $13.

 

A whole heap of other costs should be included - like tools, tyres, prop replacement, transponder check, electronic repairs/replacement, etc etc. Too much to think about but most (not all) way cheaper than GA.

 

My gut feeling is I am financially way ahead - it's been years since I was able to fill a four seater and my Zephyr is so much more fun to fly than a regular spam can.

 

In end the pilot will justify the cost of the aircraft he/she wants to fly.

This is becoming like the old argument....what was first, the chicken or the egg? I agree totally that the pilot will justify the plane he wants. I am on the tail of a very nice MiG17 ex-Russian air force. It does not cost much, but I am still trying to get my head around the fuel consumption.....:>).....Also, from MY point of view: I don`t HAVE to fill 4 seats. I also don`t HAVE to carry 120 pounds of luggage. But I CAN if I want to.Enough from me.

 

Erik in Oz.

 

 

[Markproa]

OP here again.

 

It's amazing how things can change from one day to the next. I bought the plans and was about to order materials for the Gaz'aile 2. I then got a call from the only other Gaz'aile builder in Australia who has decided he is not going to finish his plane due to age-related problems. He made me an offer I can't refuse so I've just bought an almost-finished aircraft. I'm going halves with another GA pilot and we have decided to register the plane GA. Why?

 

We can fly it in and out of our local Coffs Harbour and other controlled airspaces*, and we won't need to get RA certificates.

 

The downside is, I won't be able to maintain it myself as I didn't build 51%. Just need to find a LAME who will look at diesel engines.

 

There is also an issue with MTOW and stall speeds. The plane was designed under the European 450kg MTOW and stalls under 45 knots however it has been engineered to have a MTOW up to 600kg which will put the stall speed higher than the RAA max. of 45 Knots.

 

So, as has been pointed out by many here, RA vs GA is very much dictated by individual cases. Who knows, we may change it to RAA in the future if medicals become an issue.

 

*I found out today that a converted automobile engine can fly in controlled airspace under the Experimental category. The restriction is that it must maintain a hight capable of gliding to a non built up area.

 

Mark

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Sounds interesting, tell us more about the kero burner in it-:)

 

 

[Markproa]

I

 

Sounds interesting, tell us more about the kero burner in it-:)

It's a DV6 diesel made by the European PSA group. They are used in Citroens, Peugeots, Mini Coopers, Volvos, Mazda 3, Fords etc.

1600cc, 8 valves, all alloy turbo. It started life as an HDi direct inject but that creates headaches with the electronics so the common rail has been pulled out and replaced with a distributor pump. Very simple and reliable. It has been tested to 93HP. The reduction drive has been used on a lot of Gaz'ailes in Europe without issue.

 

[GALLERY=media, 4052]DV6 diesel engine by Markproa posted Jan 23, 2018 at 4:57 PM[/GALLERY]

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

IIt's a DV6 diesel made by the European PSA group. They are used in Citroens, Peugeots, Mini Coopers, Volvos, Mazda 3, Fords etc.

 

1600cc, 8 valves, all alloy turbo. It started life as an HDi direct inject but that creates headaches with the electronics so the common rail has been pulled out and replaced with a distributor pump. Very simple and reliable. It has been tested to 93HP. The reduction drive has been used on a lot of Gaz'ailes in Europe without issue.

 

[GALLERY=media, 4052]DV6 diesel engine by Markproa posted Jan 23, 2018 at 4:57 PM[/GALLERY]

Good on ya, Mark. Keep us updated as to the performance of the little diesel. I still love all the alternative power plants used in aviation.Erik in Oz.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

IIt's a DV6 diesel made by the European PSA group. They are used in Citroens, Peugeots, Mini Coopers, Volvos, Mazda 3, Fords etc.

 

1600cc, 8 valves, all alloy turbo. It started life as an HDi direct inject but that creates headaches with the electronics so the common rail has been pulled out and replaced with a distributor pump. Very simple and reliable. It has been tested to 93HP. The reduction drive has been used on a lot of Gaz'ailes in Europe without issue.

 

[GALLERY=media, 4052]DV6 diesel engine by Markproa posted Jan 23, 2018 at 4:57 PM[/GALLERY]

Very interesting. Like most auto conversions they rarely become popular. I wonder what longevity this motor would have developing 93 HP continuously? What reduction drive ratio does it have?

[Erik Snyman]

Very interesting. Like most auto conversions they rarely become popular. I wonder what longevity this motor would have developing 93 HP continuously? What reduction drive ratio does it have?

No aero engine runs at rated power continuously. At most take-off +5 minutes.Erik in Oz.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

No aero engine runs at rated power continuously. At most take-off +5 minutes.Erik in Oz.

That's incorrect, more miss information! Most of the lower power lycomings and Conty's are designed to run flat out all day, the flight manuals will state otherwise. The max rated power is rarely achieved continuously anyway but there is no restriction fir most.

 

 

[Erik Snyman]

That's incorrect, more miss information! Most of the lower power lycomings and Conty's are designed to run flat out all day, the flight manuals will state otherwise. The max rated power is rarely achieved continuously anyway but there is no restriction fir most.

Real world use. Not paper manual use. When was the last time you took off, flew for x hours, and landed on full power? Get real.Erik in Oz.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Real world use. Not paper manual use. When was the last time you took off, flew for x hours, and landed on full power? Get real.Erik in Oz.

Look you are putting out misinformation that you obviously are guessing at then trying to justify it it with "get real" Get your facts right and learn from others. As long as an engine is operated within the manufacturers limitations (of which there are some) there's no valid reason why you can't run a typical 0320 for Eg at full throttle until fuel exhaustion, there is no time limitation.

[Erik Snyman]

That's incorrect, more miss information! Most of the lower power lycomings and Conty's are designed to run flat out all day, the flight manuals will state otherwise. The max rated power is rarely achieved continuously anyway but there is no restriction fir most.

MORE miss-information? What other miss-information are you insinuating?Erik in Oz.

 

 

[Markproa]

Very interesting. Like most auto conversions they rarely become popular. I wonder what longevity this motor would have developing 93 HP continuously? What reduction drive ratio does it have?

Personally I'd rather fly behind a water cooled modern diesel than an aircooled Lycoming or Continental with mags. Not sure how running an aero engine flat chat continuously is relevant but I think the engine would handle it but the turbo may not. Reduction is 1.66 to 1.

This conversion was developed for Gaz'aile builders only. There are 50 Gaz'ailes flying, many with the DV4 diesel conversion, others with Toyotas, Jabarus, Rotax, BMWs, Vijas, VWs. But the original intent was to make a very cheap to run aircraft using diesels.

 

Mark

 

 

[Paulmilo]

After holding both the RA-Aus Pilot certificate and a PPL and having the aircraft in RA, I have ended up having the aircraft in GA Experimental and dropping the RA Pilot certificate. I was not going to pay for a membership every year just to hold the certificate and complete a BFR when I do not fly RA aircraft. GA Experimental Registration have given me more feedoms and did open up airfields to which I had no access to in RA. I no-longer pay any registration fees for the aircraft and my Licence is not dependent on paying a yearly membership fee, like RA pilot certificate is.Just my 2 cents worth

Do you pay someone to do your 100hrly? That was the only negative of teh EXP rego that I could see

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Do you pay someone to do your 100hrly? That was the only negative of teh EXP rego that I could see

You can do your own maintenance and 100 hourly with GA experimental. You have to have built the aircraft and do a maintenance procedures course.The fact you bought it from someone else and that I t is already mostly built doesn’t completely remove possibility of getting approval to do your own maintenance. I have heard of cases where people have got the aircraft and essentially pulled it completely apart again and inspected all the parts and then rebuilt it. They did this under guidance of their AP (right from the start) so they knew what they were doing wasn’t a waste of time.

 

Not saying it’s an absolute it will be ok but might be worth persuing with your AP.

 

 

[Paulmilo]

You can do your own maintenance and 100 hourly with GA experimental. You have to have built the aircraft and do a maintenance procedures course.The fact you bought it from someone else and that I t is already mostly built doesn’t completely remove possibility of getting approval to do your own maintenance. I have heard of cases where people have got the aircraft and essentially pulled it completely apart again and inspected all the parts and then rebuilt it. They did this under guidance of their AP (right from the start) so they knew what they were doing wasn’t a waste of time.Not saying it’s an absolute it will be ok but might be worth persuing with your AP.

Interesting. I once looked into rebuilding part of an aircraft (its wings in my case) to achieve that outcome but even that was considered iffy at the time so i did not proceed, but I would be surprised if a dissasembly would truly qualify under the rules, although if possible I'd be keen! May need to have a chat with an AP :-)

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Real world use. Not paper manual use. When was the last time you took off, flew for x hours, and landed on full power? Get real.Erik in Oz.

That’s exactly how my O 320 ran for over a 1000 hours when I had it and 2200 hours before that. - in. My Robinson R22 helicopter.