Spill Resistant Refueling ??

[skippydiesel]

Collapsible "Jerry Cans" are a great idea for small aircraft using unleaded fuel. I carry 2 x 20 litre. Cadge a lift to/from the nearest suitable servo and + 40 litres ULP will keep me going for another 3 hrs.

 

Its not all roses however. The containers, lacking rigidity, are awkward illegitimate's to lift, hold up and pore.

 

Three things I dont like about refuelling using a collapsible "Jerry Can":

 

• Spilling fuel over my plane
   
   
  
• Spilling fuel over myself
   
   
  

 

 

AND

 

• Having to admit that advancing maturity is contributing to the potential for the above to happen.
   
   
  

 

 

I have seen a video where the pilot refuels using an on board 12v pump. In the video you dont get any sense of fuel flow/how long it takes to load 20 litres. I could rig something like this but worry about the drain on my battery.

 

I invite the "brain trust" to come up with practical ideas on how a geriatric pilot can safely/easily transfer fuel from the aforementioned containers into my little beauty without busting my "pooffer valve" or spilling a drop.

 

 

[old man emu]

I take it that this is the type of thing you are talking about:

 

 

This looks like a good pump to go with it: 11 litres per minute and holds its own power supply.

 

6. TeraPump A-TRFA01-001 TRFA01 2nd Generation Battery Powered Fuel Transfer Pump – 4AA Battery, 3 GPM

 

 

TRFA01 - Battery Operated Fuel Transfer Pump with Auto Stop and Leak Protection - All Products

 

And you can get it in Melbourne

 

MOUNTABLE BATTERY POWER FUEL TRANSFER PUMP 9Lpm AUTO CUT OFF Fit Fuel Jerry Can | eBay

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi OME - Thanks for the response but I am sorry it sounds too good to be true.

 

Its very well presented but if you read all the way through, there is a small notation informing the reader, that the claimed delivery, is with the output nozzle below the delivery container - its basicly a powered siphon.

 

I dont think a centrifugal pump will "cut the mustard" it will need to be a positive displacement pump - diaphragm, piston or vane

 

I would like something that has the capacity to lift a minimum of 10 litres (petrol) per minute to a hight of 2 metres - now a light weight, low current draw, pump that can do that might be worth considering.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Do what a lot of people do !

 

Use an air pump to push the fuel out of the jerry can & into your wing tanks.

 

They're on the market some-where for 4w drive magazines.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Its the Tanami pump.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Spacesailor/Pmccarthy - Yep! have heard of the Tanami. Unlike serious off road 4X4's, not many light sport aircraft carry an air compressor.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I understand it wil work with a foot pump or hand pump. Don’t know how much effort is involved.

 

 

[M61A1]

The use of collapsible jerry cans may also complicate things.

 

 

[AussieB1rd]

Hi Skippydiesel, I was about to go into great detail on how to make a set up and while searching for some pics to explain it seems some clever people have beat me to it although it's a bit pricey, my idea was for an extra cap for bladder, a tubeless valve some clear plastic pipe and a foot valve, pressurize the bladder with foot pump and fuel flows into tank, lightweight but electric would be a lot easier and add an extra small battery if weight allows. but here is the link with basically my idea but could be built for cost of foot pump and valve and tube. The site says it will pump 12L a minute and is about 90 English pounds .

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi Aussie B,

 

Your Pommy /Tanamai looks very interesting - I could probably make something like this with a screw lid (will start searcing for one with the appropriate thread), to suit my collapsible containers - but where to source the foot pump ? (stores selling flotation devices/blow up beds ??)

 

Hi M6101,,

 

The collapsible "Jerry cans" are remarkable robust - I dont think the small transient pressure required to lift/pressurise the fuel to 2 meters will be any problem.

 

 

[M61A1]

Hi M6101,,

The collapsible "Jerry cans" are remarkable robust - I dont think the small transient pressure required to lift/pressurise the fuel to 2 meters will be any problem.

I have a couple myself. Great for carting around in the Drifter.

It occurred to me that if you made a way to hang them upside down it might work better than having a pickup hose in the bottom.

 

For that matter....maybe a lightweight collapsible stand a bit like an IV stand with a hose and a tap could work.

 

Do you fuel the wings or fuselage in the Zephyr?

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I have a couple myself. Great for carting around in the Drifter.It occurred to me that if you made a way to hang them upside down it might work better than having a pickup hose in the bottom.

For that matter....maybe a lightweight collapsible stand a bit like an IV stand with a hose and a tap could work.

 

Do you fuel the wings or fuselage in the Zephyr?

I have two tank fill points, both in fuselage.

 

• The main, is over the wing root which makes it an awkward stretch with a"floppy" container.
   
   
  
• The auxiliary is high up behind the cockpit, extremely awkward as container must be lifted to above shoulder hight to gravity feed.
   
   
  

 

 

Any shaking or loss of control (fatigue) will result in fuel spillage, as will a stiff breeze.

 

The IV Stand is a great KISS idea but I doubt will work in my application - will review next time I am with aircraft.

 

 

[Tasmag]

If you use using a bladder what about just a hose on the cap and use your foot to compress it the bladder and force fuel up the hose, then when it is light enough you can lift what is left.

 

Would take the same pressure either way.

 

 

[facthunter]

I've generally used a jabsco type pump where the action displaces a known volume of fuel to refuel from a steel jerry can using a filter funnel. This is with a highwing (Citabria). One situation where a highwing is not an advantage.This needs two people. I have also (rarely) sat a plastic jerry on the wing with protection and syphoned, but I hate doing it. I know people who used old wine cask bladders for two stroke mixed fuel. Not a high volume proposition but it works and you can carry or dispose of the bladder.

 

If you pressurize the container, a Tyre pump will easily provide enough pressure even with the big nozzle, perhaps. 14 psi will lift petrol nearly 40 feet. You'd only need about 3. but you need to be able to cut the flow quickly. You could just kink the hose I suppose.. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

If you use using a bladder what about just a hose on the cap and use your foot to compress it the bladder and force fuel up the hose, then when it is light enough you can lift what is left.Would take the same pressure either way.

Now why did I not think of this? - this is so "out of the box". All I would need is a suitable cap , fitted with hose spigot & length of delivery hose (may be a protective mat for the bladder). So KISS and lite to boot!

 

 

[skippydiesel]

If you pressurize the container, a Tyre pump will easily provide enough pressure even with the big nozzle, perhaps. 14 psi will lift petrol nearly 40 feet. You'd only need about 3. but you need to be able to cut the flow quickly. You could just kink the hose I suppose.. Nev

This has possibilities, as I carry a folding cycle pump ( & a small" green slime" for tyre emergencies). Would take a bit of pumping as it only delivers a small volume on each stroke.

 

To force the fuel out of the container at a acceptable rate, the air pump will need to deliver a total of about 25-30 litres of air @ a low pressure over about 2-3 minutes. Problem is most air pumps are aimed at delivering pressure with only a little volume, hens my earlier comment about pumps for air bed's, etc.

 

The Pommy 1/2 ball foot pump (Aussie B comment) has more potential, as it looks like it will deliver volume & pressure (dependent on operators weight).

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Just had a bit of a "brows" - there is quite a range of hand/foot and powered high volume pumps available for air mattresses & boats (some even have specifications like air volume delivery/min or stroke).

 

The hand/foot units are quite cheap, lite & no risk of sparks and appear to be more than adequate.

 

I would then need;

 

• a short length of suitable air hose (may come with some pumps) fitted with suitable coupling
   
   
  
• a modified cap with air valve in & fuel outlet spigot fitted - as cap area is relatively small this may be a bit of a "sticking" point
   
   
  
• 2.5 m of fuel delivery hose, with securing device (yet to be designed) to prevent hose from leaving filter funnel
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

The better "foot-pump" is the type used for "inflatable boats", far more robust than a cheap plastic one,

 

So off to the mariner to see what's laying around. LoL

 

spacesailor

 

 

[AussieB1rd]

skippydiesel

 

I think your catching on fast, if you use the foot pump have rubber hose on it and a valve connector on it, with your cap you need two holes, one the same size as the hole in your tubeless wheel and pull a tube nipple thru from the inside so it poke out the top and you attach your valve connector from the pump on that, the other hole put a brass connector or just silicone some clear hose in it, enough in to reach the bottom of the jerry/bladder the other side enough to reach your tank, and happy pumping, most camping or BCF stores sell th pumps, I saw one yeaterday on FB market place had been used once and an air mattress real cheap

 

AND the pommy setup same as my idea said it pumps 12L a minute so whats that 4 minutes to load your 40L

 

Here is a slightly different foot pump (DRC Mini Foot Pump | Shop | Wheeling Cycle Supply)

 

 

[facthunter]

The little CO2 things used for sparkling drinks might be the go . You would need a needle valve (easy to get) to regulate the gas flow required. CO2 has the advantage of being fire retardant, so no risk whatever of spark causing explosion in the container. Make if all from aluminium and it weighs virtually nothing and stores easily.. Nev

 

 

[danny_galaga]

The little CO2 things used for sparkling drinks might be the go . You would need a needle valve (easy to get) to regulate the gas flow required. CO2 has the advantage of being fire retardant, so no risk whatever of spark causing explosion in the container. Make if all from aluminium and it weighs virtually nothing and stores easily.. Nev

That’s not a bad idea! You may not know this but they sell similar gas bulbs for bicycles. That would have the advantage of having a valve set up you could adapt to the task. Not sure what gas it would be though. I suspect nitrogen which would be fine.

 

Was thinking of carrying a couple of those for emergency tyre repairs but if they are cheap enough could use them for fuel as well

 

 

[danny_galaga]

Good news and bad news with the bike inflation canisters. Good news is they just use CO2 canisters. Bad news is it would take quite a few to pump up an aircraft tyre. But for the Jerry cans you probably only need one :)

 

Cnc Aluminum Co2 Boost Bike Motorcycle Tyre Inflator Kit With 10 X 16gm Cartridg 9349910000122 | eBay

 

 

[facthunter]

Some tyres are nitrogen filled. It's probably the best gas to use. CO2 is a fire retardant and not toxic. It does displace oxygen and gets cold when released as do all gases when they expand.. Nev

 

 

[skippydiesel]

The little CO2 things used for sparkling drinks might be the go . You would need a needle valve (easy to get) to regulate the gas flow required. CO2 has the advantage of being fire retardant, so no risk whatever of spark causing explosion in the container. Make if all from aluminium and it weighs virtually nothing and stores easily.. Nev

Wow! - another idea from "out of the box" - I have no doubt that the concept is sound, but how many "soda bombs" will be needed to drive 20 litres of fuel out of a 23 litre (bladder) volume??

 

 

[danny_galaga]

When I was searching for the bike kits I found a chart that showed how many bulbs were needed for what sized tyres and what pressure. Can’t find that chart right now but this is a start

 

https://storage.googleapis.com/genuineinnovations-com/uploads/CO2_Chart_INT10.pdf

 

Ah this is the one (above)