Spill Resistant Refueling ??

[AussieB1rd]

Hmmmmmm I would be worried that the CO2 canisters could due to heat or cold improper storage or altitude become a mini V2 Flying bomb, easiest way to check is pack some in your carry on luggage and if it makes it thru Xray and onto the plane then smuggle you ciggy lighter on as well, just saying

 

 

[danny_galaga]

Well I suspect skippy won’t being skimming the stratosphere :D

 

Edit: what better way to science than via beer :D

 

How Much Beer Will A 16g Co2 Bulb Serve?

 

So it seems a 16 gram cartridge displaces 8 litres of beer, err fuel!

 

 

[skippydiesel]

If you use using a bladder what about just a hose on the cap and use your foot to compress it the bladder and force fuel up the hose, then when it is light enough you can lift what is left.Would take the same pressure either way.

As this is, by far, the simplest & lightest option I am going to try this first. Have written to potential suppliers of suitable caps (to modify) - so far no response.

 

Once I have a suitable cap, with hose spigot & length of delivery hose attached, I will acquire a suitable mat, that can go under & fold over the bladder, to protect it as I stand on it.

 

Will report back in due course

 

 

[Tasmag]

skippydiesel

 

This is what I had envisaged for attachment to the cap when I was thinking about doing the same thing.

 

Mike

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

skippydieselThis is what I had envisaged for attachment to the cap when I was thinking about doing the same thing.

 

Mike

Hi Tasmag - Yep! all good. May be more suitable for a single bladder set up.

 

Myself, I have two 20 L Collapsible Jerry Cans (bladder) - I envisaged a suitable separate cap fitted with brass spigot (no tap or valve) and suitable length (about 2 m in my case) of fuel delivery hose.

 

Method - remove exiting bladder cap, screw on modified cap, secure delivery hose to tank fill point, place bladder on side, on matt, fold matt over bladder, apply foot to mat/bladder - fuel will be driven out of can into aircraft tank. When most of fuel has entered tank, unscrew cap, tip (hopefully small light in weight) remainder into tank. Repeat (if necessary) for second 20 L.

 

My consept has the advantage of no moving parts & light weight

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Pressure is force over area. So a big foot on a flexible bag may not give much pressure. The same foot on an air pump of limited diameter may give a lot more pressure. Or you could try a hand-operated plastic air mattress pump, which doesn't weigh much, though it may have too large a diameter too.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Pressure is force over area. So a big foot on a flexible bag may not give much pressure. The same foot on an air pump of limited diameter may give a lot more pressure. Or you could try a hand-operated plastic air mattress pump, which doesn't weigh much, though it may have too large a diameter too.

I understand. However I will try the simplest least costly idea first. If it is not effective, I have lost nothing, as the next idea incorporates the same modified cap PLUS an air valve/coupling and an air pump. Think of this as a staged process.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Skippy

 

What I have had in mind is to make a brass disc the same size diameter as the yellow disc in most plastic fuel container caps; out of about 3 mm brass sheet. Into that I drill a 16 mm hole and braze or silver solder a short length (100 mm) of 16 mm o.d. brass or stainless tube that is about 50 mm each side. I will also drill a hole to accept a car wheel rubber valve stem. Then when inserted/screwed into a container of fuel it will have a length of hose that reaches the bottom of the container. The outside will have a length of 16 mm id hose that will reach the aircraft filler point. At this end there will be a ball valve to stop the flow when required. Greg the dealer I purchased the Nynja off has this setup and it works great. Been a bit short on spare time so have not made them yet. The item is pressurised with a bike pump. I just have to source some brass sheet of the correct thickness and cut the discs then the rest will be straight forward. Cheers Mike

 

 

[Wjohnmid]

Try STM australia/ 20 ltr hand pumps.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi SkippyWhat I have had in mind is to make a brass disc the same size diameter as the yellow disc in most plastic fuel container caps; out of about 3 mm brass sheet. Into that I drill a 16 mm hole and braze or silver solder a short length (100 mm) of 16 mm o.d. brass or stainless tube that is about 50 mm each side. I will also drill a hole to accept a car wheel rubber valve stem. Then when inserted/screwed into a container of fuel it will have a length of hose that reaches the bottom of the container. The outside will have a length of 16 mm id hose that will reach the aircraft filler point. At this end there will be a ball valve to stop the flow when required. Greg the dealer I purchased the Nynja off has this setup and it works great. Been a bit short on spare time so have not made them yet. The item is pressurised with a bike pump. I just have to source some brass sheet of the correct thickness and cut the discs then the rest will be straight forward. Cheers Mike

Sounds good and quite workable but as I said earlier, I will start with a significantly simpler idea, if it works great, if not - nothing lost & I will move to something like what you are proposing.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Try STM australia/ 20 ltr hand pumps.

I doubt one of STM's pumps would work very well in a fuel bladder (I have 1 or 2 for transferring oil and mower fuel from ridged drums) and even if it did - weight, size and the need to store it in a reasonably vapour/smell proof container would add a level of difficulty that goes against my KISS principals.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Sounds good and quite workable but as I said earlier, I will start with a significantly simpler idea, if it works great, if not - nothing lost & I will move to something like what you are proposing.

Understand. Just posted the idea for yourself and others to know. I'll make 4 of them as some mates are chasing a way of refueling with out lifting to fill high wings. I just need get some brass sheet to cut out the discs. The 16mm is the best size for delivery and Greg is happy with that size. Let us know how your first choice goes. I expect it will work and you may have roll the bladder up to squeeze out the remainder after the initial squeezing. Cheers

 

 

[matt walsh]

Evening all,

 

ah refueling options a subject dear to my heart!! I fly a Savannah (ex Roger Weston's from Caboolture QLD and a ripper girl). Previously flew a Gazelle and so was used to refueling high wing tanks, ie Mr funnel filter sitting in tank filler hole, standing on ladders, chairs, hoisting and controlling flow from 20 liter plastic containers into Mr Filter. A pain and physically tiring yes?? And when Mr Funnel filter wobbled around because funnel neck and filler hole are different diameters and caused spills, annoying yes???

 

So, I investigated options. Desirably a easy set up 12V electric pump and just poke discharge hose into wing tank, other end in 20L fuel jerry, 12V lead into aux socket in plane and life of ease. But any gasoline approved pump ie FillRite etc cost $400 plus. Lots of dinky water and diesel transfer pumps on Ebay but nil gasoline safe ones.

 

Tried a rotary hand pump, Alimat, bought s/h and ok but bit cumbersome, lots of hose to handle, keep your plastic jerry stable etc. I reckon these pumps are best for 205L drum refuelling setups.

 

Tried the compressed air into jerry. I fitted a valve stem cut off a bike tube, drilled hole in yellow cap and nut on stem with rubber washer seals either side of stem nuts. Fitted on one cap and fitted a tap arrangement using brass fittings onto the other cap. I used a hand pump as source of compressed air and it sort of worked but needed refinement to keep everything stable whilst I pressured the jerry, discharge pipe to wing tanks etc. Good in theory but I just wasn’t in the mood. My simple set up used 2 caps ie one fuel discharge/outlet and one for compressed air intake. Not sure how you would convert a bladder bag as I thought these bladders have only one cap.

 

Then being an ex enduro motorbike racer, led me to motorcycle racing options. I'm happy with setup below,

 

I am amusing "Fast Fill" plastic containers and check them on www.mxstore.com.au. I have two makes with differing handle configurations.

 

"Tough Jug" brand ripper cap plastic containers. 20L $90 and 10 L$70.

 

"O'Neal" Fast Fill jug. 20L $70 and 10L $50.

 

These work by simply pressing the nozzle down into the filler hole that slides back on an internal shaft and opens an orifice at the tip and fuel flows into tank. Fuel stops when fuel level covers end of cap so you can’t overfill. Just lift fuel can up, fuel cap seals immediately and absolutely no leaks, spills.

 

Whilst slightly slower, I am using 10 Litre capacity cans. I can lift them and place the nozzle into the wing tank filler hole whilst standing on the ground and doing it one handed. I couldn't do this with 20 L canisters so that’s why smaller /slower 10L are my choice.

 

Of the two brands, I find the 2 handle O'Neil cans easier to use and lift up and direct into tank filler. The Tuff Jug is ok but has only 1 handle and not as easy to move spatially.

 

So how is the fuel filtered you ask?? I buy 95 MOGAS at reputable high-volume stations in 20 Litres plastic containers. I then fill the 10 Litre fast fills through large size Mr funnel filter from the 20L containers on the ground away from plane. I then fill wing tanks using the 10L fast fills. The fast fills stand stable so Mr Funnel sits into the filler hole without wobbles. Being well away from my plane lessens risks from possible ignition from static charge as fuel vortexes in funnel. But of course, I use a static earth on funnel to address this risk.

 

I acknowledge the fast fills don’t roll up as compact as the bladder bags but 10/10 for ease of use. I'm never that pushed for space in Savvy and if I had to walk fuel from a distance then fast fill cans are much ergonomically and comfortable handle than a bladder bag.

 

So that's my take on the process. I'll take a smart phone video of me doing the fill next time flying and post here just to illustrate, after all plenty of muppets making YouTubes about any crap so I should be qualified and an equal amongst them!

 

Happy to discuss further, email me on [email protected] and we can exchange contact numbers and talk at length.

 

Happy Refueling and may your sparks be never.................

 

Cheers Matt Walsh, PIC, Savanah 4295

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi Matt,

 

With reference to your comment; "So, I investigated options. Desirably a easy set up 12V electric pump and just poke discharge hose into wing tank, other end in 20L fuel jerry, 12V lead into aux socket in plane and life of ease. But any gasoline approved pump ie FillRite etc cost $400 plus. Lots of dinky water and diesel transfer pumps on Ebay but nil gasoline safe ones."

 

I have been down this "track" and like you I found the only 12 v petrol/gasoline transfer pumps to be very expensive and heavy (not designed for small aircraft carriage) however I hit upon a small lightweight 12 v petrol compatible high flow pump which" ticks all the boxes".

 

The pump in question is designed for us in very high performance (high fuel consumption/flow) petrol engines. You can purchase an original USA made Holly ($250) or a Chinese "knock off" ($70) both claim about 530 L/hr (less than three minutes to transfer 20 litres).

 

These are vain pumps so are self priming and will easily lift fuel from ground level to a high wing fuel tank.

 

In addition to purchasing the pump, you will need a good strong 12 V battery, battery to pump connectors, a HD fully enclosed ON/OFF switch, sufficient hose & clamps and if not supplied compatible spigots.

 

I fitted mine with a high flow, in line filter - slows the delivery slightly but no need for Mr Funnel. I also made up a bracket to hang/support the pump. I made my on/off switch leads long enough so that I can hold the switch in one hand while monitoring the tank fill. I also have a ground wire to minimise the risk of spark

 

Have been using my little set up for about two years now without any problems.

 

Note:

 

My Chinese Holly copy does not deliver the claimed litres/hr but at $70 who's complaining

 

I see that Holly now have a gear pump for similar applications - at this stage haven't seen a Chinese copy but I have little doubt one will appear soon

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hiya, Skippydiesel ( much rather use proper names but don't know yours so its a kanga type intro)

 

Thanks for explaining your set up in good detail. I'd really appreciate some photos and brand of pump and where you bought it. Your set up sounds fine and practical. My only comment would be that you have to eyeball fuel level in tank to enable switch off before overflow. use of inline filter smart and save refiltering. After all fuel must be reasonably particle free from fuel stations since its going into cars. I assume the switch is a completely sealed unit to gaurentee no chance of being an ignition source for vapours from tank during filling and eye balling tank levels. Is this a special type of switch or did you expoxy or silicon encase. Reply to my personal email, [email protected] if you prefer some privacy.

 

Thanks again Skip.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Her it is Matt (from an earlier discussion about dodgy fuel hose) a pic of my set up, usually mounted on my service trolley, with 12 V battery:

 

Note:

 

Ground wire (green) with clip

 

Extra long on/of switch wire with switch

 

Non return valve (silver) on bottom of inlet hose. Not essential as pump is self priming.

 

Relatively non restrictive inline filter. Again not necessary if you are using a filter funnel.

 

Holly "knock off" , positive displacement (good lift characteristics), vane petrol pump.

 

 

To get a "tad" more delivery rate I have since deleted the in line filter and have reverted to a home made filter funnel on the aircraft filler port.

 

Just put Holly pumps into Google and you will get directions to a range of potential suppliers of both the real Holly and the copies.- I purchased mine from a local auto shop specialising in race cars (street & track). I think Super Cheap Auto also do them.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Update on KISS fuel transfer from 20 l collapsible jerrycan (bladder) to aircraft;

 

Today was the day to try it out. Purchased two new lids to suit jerry. Drilled one to fit 1/2 in spigot

 

Well the good news is that my spigot to cap transplant worked fine - no leaks.

 

Minor bad news - had difficulty getting modified cap to seal - small leak. Cap has no "rubber " gasket may have to find one.

 

Major bad news - a hydraulic engineer could have told me this - my puny 70 kg weight standing on the bladder was not enough to drive the fuel up the two metres of hose into the tank (or at least in the time that I had).

 

0 for KISS

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I guess you are all to stunned by the failure of my KISS collapsible Jerrycan refuelling system to comment.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

I guess you are all to stunned by the failure of my KISS collapsible Jerrycan refuelling system to comment.

Yep, sometimes its best to have people learn from practical experience saves them deciding about using or not using what is told. Re getting fuel from floor to wing tank a google search will show pump performance or lack of performance to height.

For me the bike pump to pressurise with 16 mm delivery hose is the one for me; still have to make and try; I have it from a very reliable source that the system works.

 

Still have to make it and I'm off for a good flight tomorrow and Saturday so have 92 litres in the tanks and yesterday I got a refresh on lifting 20 litre jugs to fill the wing tanks. It did remind myself to make the pressure filler setup. Cheers

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Is that a long way of saying - "I told you so"

 

Tell me more about the 16 mm spigot/delivery hose - the largest my local hydraulic shop had was 1/2 in

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

This would appear to be a good, lightweight and cheap option at $25 -

 

255LPH FUEL PUMP Set Fits Falcon BA BF 6CY XR6 Turbo XR8 V8 FPV GSS340

 

In-tank fuel pump normally for fuel injection - at that flow rate it would transfer a 20L jerrycan of fuel in just under five minutes. Just kit it out with a length of 8mm fuel hose with inline filter, a pair of wires with crocodile clips to connect to the battery with an inline rocker switch - and dangle it in the jerrycan of fuel.

 

The pump weighs only 360g so the whole setup would be under half a kilo ...

 

 

Edit - or if five minutes is too slow for you, you can get a 450L/hr pump for $70 that would transfer the jerrycan of fuel in under 3 mins.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lucky01]

If you are using a pump why fill it from the top? We fill from ground level at work with a remote filler point.

 

Dry Break Fuel System - Receivers | Banlaw thats the coupling on the machine - but im sure that there is something cheaper you could adapt

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

If you are using a pump why fill it from the top? We fill from ground level at work with a remote filler point.Dry Break Fuel System - Receivers | Banlaw thats the coupling on the machine - but im sure that there is something cheaper you could adapt

It requires a modification to the fuel tank(s) which is not permitted on factory-built planes and would probably be quite difficult on many fuel tanks anyway, unless they just happened to have a suitable threaded boss available at an accessible location. It 'might' be possible to use the fuel sample drain point where modifications are permitted on amateur-built planes. Otherwise you would have to tap into the tank outlet and they're often in locations that are difficult to access.

 

 

[Lucky01]

ahhh copy that.

 

Still getting my head around the fact you cant fix your plane. putting a T adaptor into your filter housing on the input side I guess is illegal

 

Cheers

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

ahhh copy that.Still getting my head around the fact you cant fix your plane. putting a T adaptor into your filter housing on the input side I guess is illegal

 

Cheers

Yes it is, on a factory-built plane.

 

Also, that would probably be quite inconvenient if you had to access the engine bay each time to refuel, though no doubt you could run a tube to a convenient location.

 

And ... it wouldn't work on some installations due to the one-way valve in the fuel line. And also, if you used a pump that exceeds about 4-5psi you would unseat the carby float valve and cause flooding in the engine bay, a serious fire risk.

 

Having said that, for an amateur-built it could be a very convenient method for some people, in some installations, and help to avoid spills onto windshields and the like, which, if polycarbonate and curved, often results in instant destruction of the windshield.