Spill Resistant Refueling ??

[skippydiesel]

Hi Antonts - Checked out the JRoc web site: Very interesting. Particularly taken with the potential of the JR005 12V pump with 2 m of delivery hose with a claimed 12L/minute delivery. JR Technical adviser Rob (0414339682) assures me it will deliver between 10-12 L/min at 2 m lift - impressive (if true). Unfortunately the asking price is $110 but if it performs as claimed (or close to it) would be well worth it.

 

 

[antonts]

This is much more heavy and requires external power (powerbox or lead to some socket). But, of course, it is more powerful and has valve nozzle.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

This is much more heavy and requires external power (powerbox or lead to some socket). But, of course, it is more powerful and has valve nozzle.

It may weigh more than the D cell powered unit BUT it may also out perform it (flow rate and hight of delivery). I guess each person will have to decide what is more important:

 

• Speed of delivery
   
   
  
• Lift hight (high wing or high fill point on fuselage)
   
   
  
• Weight of pump
   
   
  
• Power demand from aircraft battery / D cell
   
   
  

 

 

Which model are you using??

 

My fake Holly works very well but is a bit on the heavy side (will weigh & publish) giving high flow and is relatively unaffected by lift hight. I have just fitted it with a plug. compatible with an external jack/plug on my aircraft. Next time I have 40 L of fuel to pump in I will try it out. This will give me more information on flow rate and more importantly - will my aircraft battery still have plenty of power to start the engine after pumping 40 L.

 

 

[antonts]

I use JRP001, very basic, but for my tasks it is enough. For bigger jobs, especially if you always have socket with 12v, JRP005 may be better.

 

 

[nomadpete]

The bicycle shop will sell you a CO2 sparklet tap/ Schrader setup ready made for racing bike tyre inflation. Saw one at Also recently

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I use JRP001, very basic, but for my tasks it is enough. For bigger jobs, especially if you always have socket with 12v, JRP005 may be better.

Everything with aviation is a trade off -

 

• My fake Holly is likely to be quite heavy compared with your JRP001 but will lift/deliver the fuel to much higher fill points at about 10-12 L/min.
   
   
  
• My pump will require connection to the aircraft 12 V power BUT the big question is will my battery still have sufficient amps (after pumping 40 litres of fuel) to start the motor.
   
   
  
• Your pump has its own power supply so does not impact on your engine starting.
   
   
  
• Etc etc
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[antonts]

As I said I selected this small pump due to my very specific tasks, to fill industrial equipment, cars etc in ANY conditions. Speed and height do not matter for me, but it should be self-contained (means no cables, external power, anything else, just jerrycan, pump and some tank to be filled) and small.

 

Do not worry about battery. Even your big pump consumes 2-3 Amp max, for 40l (2 cans) it takes 10 mins max - so it uses less than 0.5Ah from your 40Ah battery. If it is not completely flat - everything will be ok.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

[

 

Do not worry about battery. Even your big pump consumes 2-3 Amp max, for 40l (2 cans) it takes 10 mins max - so it uses less than 0.5Ah from your 40Ah battery. If it is not completely flat - everything will be ok.

 

Thank you for your reassurance - will let you know if actual operation has a different result.

 

 

[nodrogz]

A good way to syphon fuel is to place the container on the wing with a hose into both the container and the tank, and blow into the container. The increased pressure in the container will start the fuel flowing and the the syphoning effect will kick in.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

A good way to syphon fuel is to place the container on the wing with a hose into both the container and the tank, and blow into the container. The increased pressure in the container will start the fuel flowing and the the syphoning effect will kick in.

Me thinks this might be frowned on in certain Australian communities.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi SkippyUpdate. Tonight I finished fabing up the bits to make the cap insert piece (Length of 5/8" copper pipe, cut off bent valve from an old aircraft tube and the brass disc). Just need to clean up and braze or silver solder it the next few days. Then get some hose and give it a try.

 

Cheers

 

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Hi Skippy got a promising trial result today. Filling from a 20 litre fuel jug with 16mm hose from jug up to wing tanks. About 180cm rise and using a hand tyre inflator the fuel flowed easily up. Only problem encountered was some splash back when the jug was almost empty and caused buy a mix of air bubbles and fuel being in line and when it exited the hose into the Mr funnel at the tank fill point. I believe that the pressure in the hose contributed to this matter. Driving home I remembered that the guy who told me about this system does not have a one way valve it the connection to the fuel container. I'll redo Friday or over weekend with the valve removed from the pump connection that way I can control the fuel flow as the container will not be under pressure, just the pump strokes. Cheers Mike

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi Skippy got a promising trial result today. ................................................................................ Cheers Mike

Hi Mike.

 

Sounds promising although the bubbles/gurgles at the end may represent a rather risky aerosol. Dont blow yourself up.

 

I have further modified my Holly - removed all brackets, to lighten as much as possible and fitted with a rigid black Polly pipe on the inlet side (replacing a hose). The idea is that the pump will stay in the neck of the fuel bladder without having to be held. This will leave my hands free to support bladder and direct fuel flow into aircraft. I plan to try it all out next week by refuelling 40 litres using "ship power"(on board battery) only. I will follow this by hopefully starting the 912 & flying away. If it all works I have an "away" fuelling system that should not spill a drop or bust my back.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Mike.Sounds promising although the bubbles/gurgles at the end may represent a rather risky aerosol. Dont blow yourself up.

 

I have further modified my Holly - removed all brackets, to lighten as much as possible and fitted with a rigid black Polly pipe on the inlet side (replacing a hose). The idea is that the pump will stay in the neck of the fuel bladder without having to be held. This will leave my hands free to support bladder and direct fuel flow into aircraft. I plan to try it all out next week by refuelling 40 litres using "ship power"(on board battery) only. I will follow this by hopefully starting the 912 & flying away. If it all works I have an "away" fuelling system that should not spill a drop or bust my back.

Absolutely agree, caution will ensure control of delivery so no aerated fuel is delivered, plus grounding of system. Was surprised how little effort was required to lift the fuel. Your system is progressing well and yes it's good not to have to lift fuel jugs. Cheers

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Latest modifications to Chinese Holly. I have replaced the suction hose with a black polly pipe. The idea is to enable the pump to sit in the top of the fuel bladder without needing a bracket/hand to stabilise it. I have also fitted the power supply with an Anderson plug which plugs right into "ship" power. The setup actually works and thanks to the larger bore of the polly pipe seems to deliver a greater flow rate. (open ends of system are "corked" to prevent dirt ingress)

 

 

 

[matt walsh]

Hiya Skippy Diesel and others,

 

I've read with great interest, the numerous posts after I wrote on 16 July about my refueling practices. I like your set up as pictured above and it appears very portable and stowable. Will the poly pipe deteriorate/dissolve, contaminate the fuel and be a significant impurity??. I guess the fuel filter will address this issue. Your thoughts please.

 

I finally trialed my home base refueling set up as per photos below. Its very similar to your arrangement and uses a AeroFlow AF49-1008 12v aftermarket fuel pump. The other components are car shop sourced and scrounged from other pumps. Time for transferring about 18 liters from jerrys to the Savannah's wing tank was about 2 mins. I could refine the set up including hoses into all 3 jerrys for a 60 liter filling station etc.

 

My initial response was that " Its all a'bit fiddly and not much quicker" than manual filling from start to finish. I use the 10 litre tuff jugs (I prefer the O'Neil brand as the 2 side handle allow easy hoisting and steadying whilst the jug empties). These jugs empty in about 30 seconds. Sure you have to refill say 5 to 6 times but its quick and enables filtering using Mr Funnel. This is fine for home base refueling. I use the 10 liter jugs as I can lift them and insert into the wing tank single handed. There is a 20 litre size of tuff jug but reckon lifting and holding this larger jug would less convenient/enjoyable

 

When away from base, you could take a tuff jug and Collapsible Bladders (CB) when the airfield hasn't a fuel supply. I don't use CB's as I fly solo and plenty space for rigid 20L containers or travel via airfields where Avgas is available).

 

Your system is compact though and easy to rig. You could hang the CB from the tie down point on the wing underside (or some other nearby point) and secure the filling tube end into the wing tank so nothing needs holding.

 

Anyways its been a very interesting topic to discuss and I appreciate the wisdom and experiences of others,

 

Regards Matt Walsh, Savannah 4295,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hi Matt,

 

Seems we have, quite independently, come up with a similar solution/alternative to lifting 20 litre fuel cans and expensive "off the shelf" petrol fuel transfer pumps . My observations are:

 

Nice compact set up - all looks well thought out and neat.

 

By having your pump & fuel in a neat little trolley (about 1 m elevation ?) you are reducing the lift/work of the pump and the time taken to transfer the fuel - well done

 

Not sure that you need to have such long power/control leads. This may be unnecessarily reducing power to the pump.

 

I have a third lead, fitted with an alligator clamp, as a ground connection - not sure its needed and I dont always use it but it shows I am concerned about the possibility of generating a spark.

 

My system originally had the pump mounted on a trolley with flexible suction/delivery hoses but as I wanted to take the pump away on trips I had to come up with an alternative "mounting" system.

 

My aircraft is a low wing without any possible bladder hanging points - I have test run fuelling from a bladder (CB), leaning against my leg, using the Polly suction "spike" and it all seems to work without much difficulty.

 

Polly pipe appears to be fuel resistant but clearly has not been designed for such work, so I will have to monitor its condition over time. An aluminium tube would be better and one day I might go to he trouble of acquiring some and threading one end to fit the pump. Could probably use copper pipe but may be a bit on the heavy side.

 

I mounted an Anderson Connector (AC) onto the lower side of my panel. It is a live connection to my battery through high amp cables. Originally for battery charging and with a suitably modified (AC) "jumper leads" emergency engine starting. This is how I power my Chinese "Holly" pump, without the need to turn on my aircraft electrical system.

 

Knowing what I know now I could build my current iteration for well under $100 but it has taken several stages/modifications/$$ to get where it is now.

 

 

[matt walsh]

Dear Skip,

 

I really appreciate your comments and updates; thanks for sharing your knowledge and works. I agree an aluminium or copper inlet tube would be more durable and reliable than poly tube, I expect the increased weight shouldn't be a limiting factor.

 

I was reading more about in- tank fuel pumps used in cars and this ump variety seems an option also. This pump could be mounted on end of a stiff tube (ie aluminium/copper) and then tube inserted into jerry can, passing through cap to steady/align tube to container bottom. This arrangement would be a neat tidy compact device, not unlike the plastic siphon pumps advertised on Ebay. I read enough about submersed fuel pumps to accept its safe practice.

 

Regarding hanging a bladder for the low wing tanks, could you make a 3 legged tripod and hang bladder in center whilst it refuels to wing tank? Relatively thin rod/tube could be used for the tripod.

 

Regarding length of wiring in my set up, I agree its lengthy and I would shorten significantly in a further iteration. I might have some more plays, although the simple Tuff jugs filling devices work well enough for me.

 

Again thanks for sharing. Cheers Matt

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

.... I agree an aluminium or copper inlet tube would be more durable and reliable than poly tube, I expect the increased weight shouldn't be a limiting factor. ....

I've used polypropylene tubes with petrol over lengthy periods of time and the petrol doesn't seem to affect it at all. The poly tube I've used is the irrigation tube and rigid risers you get from Bunnings, so I'd say that as long as it's strong enough for your purpose it is probably the lightest choice. Similarly, polyethylene is a suitable plastic for use with petrol, it doesn't often come in tube form, more often in sheet form, such as for cutting boards. Polyethylene is the type of plastic used in rotation molding for plastic jerrycans. Polyurethane flexible tubing is affected by petrol, but not unduly. It swells a little and discolours a little but does return to normal (apart from discolouration caused by the dye in the petrol) after removal from petrol. Regardless that it swells I use it for fuel sight gauges because it is so much tougher than clear PVC which hardens and becomes brittle after a while.

 

..... I was reading more about in- tank fuel pumps used in cars and this ump variety seems an option also. This pump could be mounted on end of a stiff tube (ie aluminium/copper) and then tube inserted into jerry can, passing through cap to steady/align tube to container bottom. This arrangement would be a neat tidy compact device, not unlike the plastic siphon pumps advertised on Ebay. I read enough about submersed fuel pumps to accept its safe practice. .....

Yup, I'm still a fan of the immersible pumps but I can't find one that will fit into the neck of a plastic jerrycan. The smallest in-tank pumps seem to be 38mm diameter and the jerrycan neck is about 32mm. I had considered attaching a rigid tube to the bottom of the pump, to insert into the jerrycan but that won't work either because the immersible pumps are centrifugal pumps not positive displacement vane pumps, so they won't suck the fuel up, they can only push the fuel up from the bottom of the jerrycan.

 

So we need a smaller diameter in-tank pump, or a jerrycan with a larger neck.

 

Nice idea about the tripod!

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I've used polypropylene tubes with petrol over lengthy periods of time and the petrol doesn't seem to affect it at all. "I appreciate your reassurance regarding poly pipe durability. Mine comes from an irrigation equipment supplier and is as you correctly mentioned a length of riser.

 

"Yup, I'm still a fan of the immersible pumps but I can't find one that will fit into the neck of a plastic jerrycan"

 

Like you I have researcher in tank/submersible/immersible fuel pumps and like you a great idea just wont work due to the size of jerrycan "necks"

 

"So we need a smaller diameter in-tank pump, or a jerrycan with a larger neck."

 

 

 

"Nice idea about the tripod!

I agree nice idea BUT I work quite hard against my own tendency to load the aircraft with bits & pieces that might be useful when- if I can steady the bladder against my leg or with a free hand this simpler less element approach is the way I will try to go.

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Skippy

Update. Tonight I finished fabing up the bits to make the cap insert piece (Length of 5/8" copper pipe, cut off bent valve from an old aircraft tube and the brass disc). Just need to clean up and braze or silver solder it the next few days. Then get some hose and give it a try.

 

Cheers

 

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Today I used the setup and it worked a treat.  Removed the valve from the stem valve body so no excessive build up in the container.  Just needs a little refinement.  Eg earth cable system, and a valve at delivery end and i'll place a curved end nozzle after the control valve to direct into the mister funnel.  Fitted in a fly as well.

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Well done BlueA - You've stuck with your concept & it WORKS !!! 

 

I understand why you have removed the air valve . I presume that in practice this means you must pump continually to "lift" your fuel??. Perhaps the ability to retain a few psi in the tank might allow you to take a break from pumping.

 

The view out of the cockpit looks a bit like the Sydney Basin ?

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Well done BlueA - You've stuck with your concept & it WORKS !!! 

I understand why you have removed the air valve . I presume that in practice this means you must pump continually to "lift" your fuel??. Perhaps the ability to retain a few psi in the tank might allow you to take a break from pumping.

 

The view out of the cockpit looks a bit like the Sydney Basin ?

You don't have to keep pumping; pressure remains in the container.  Just with the vale you can create too much pressure.  I should have got it going months ago.  On ting I'll do is extend the pump to cap valve hose so I can have the pump on my step and monitor as I fill the tanks to full for trips, 

 

Area is just west of Mackay.  Palmyra to Eton area.  Low cloud and rain so just stayed local.  I made a slight adjustment to the flap and was keen to try.  Worked great. 

 

Cheers and Merry Xmas.  Mike

 

 

[skippydiesel]

You don't have to keep pumping; pressure remains in the container.  Just with the vale you can create too much pressure.  I should have got it going months ago.  On ting I'll do is extend the pump to cap valve hose so I can have the pump on my step and monitor as I fill the tanks to full for trips, 

Area is just west of Mackay.  Palmyra to Eton area.  Low cloud and rain so just stayed local.  I made a slight adjustment to the flap and was keen to try.  Worked great. 

 

Cheers and Merry Xmas.  Mike

I guess I was taken in my the overcast - so typical of the Sydney basin.

 

And to you all the best for Christmas and the New Year

 

Fly Safe

 

Sean

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Today I used the setup and it worked a treat.  Removed the valve from the stem valve body so no excessive build up in the container.  Just needs a little refinement.  Eg earth cable system, and a valve at delivery end and i'll place a curved end nozzle after the control valve to direct into the mister funnel.  Fitted in a fly as well.

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Refining the system a little more.  Fitting a valve at the delivery end and a copper pipe bent to direct fuel into filler via Mr Funnel. (Bending spring still on so I can alter the pipe bend radius to suit.)  I'll fit heat srink over the valve ends and the copper pipe so no chance of marking wings etc.  I'll then attach the earthing system.  Cheers

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Looking good.

 

Fuel tank looks like 10 L - correct?

 

What length is the delivery hose?

 

I appreciate pressure will have a bearing but have you worked out an approximate delivery rate?