Choices

[Guest Redair]

Greetings each, well, a little over a year on from getting into recreational flying, and I still am no closer to narrowing down the field as to which aircraft to buy, (or hope to buy).

 

I have done the usual lists of what I would like in an aircraft, what I could accept and what I really don't want, (although this list does keep changing) and I have tried the usual pros and cons type lists for various possible types... all to no avail.

 

It seems that the perfect aircraft is not out there, (for me anyway) as all the good and bad points for those I consider seem to cancel each other out.

 

So where am I going with this ramble you may ask? Well, I figure that the only way to try and sort out the problem once and for all, is to try and fly as many of the possibles, on my list as I can... and here begins the problem, where do I find a whole bunch of different aircraft, all in the same place at the same time, that I could have test/trial flights in? Is there such a gathering of types, and if so where and when?

 

Also, I am really stuck between whether it is better to go with factory built, or homebuilt. I keep finding out more little snippets of information on both types, which is making my chances of deciding one way or another, swing backwards and forwards like a weather-cock in a storm.

 

I NEED HELP! and not just the kind that the people in white coats can provide!

 

So, any input on the pros and cons of various types, factory or homebuilt, would be welcome, and may just shed light on areas that I have not even considered yet.

 

Regards, Redair.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

i suggest you plan a trip to Narromine at Easter. It may be the only place in Oz where you can see first hand the types you may be interested in and speak to owners and builders. You will possibly be able to fly some of the distributors aircraft. You should also be able to contact the RAAus and access some members in the data base that live in your area as to who flys what and contact them. then again you have the good people here who may have the info you seek. list your preferences here may be a good start.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Thanks for that Ozzie, I am hoping to get to Narromine this year, I was a bit too tied up with work and didn't have enough time to organise myself last year.

 

As for what I'm looking for, it's really down to too many variables. I know that doesn't help much in the way of getting advice from the many helpful members in these forums, but any advice will help.

 

So, a list of sorts:

 

Tailwheel - No

 

STOL - would be nice

 

Reasonable cruise speed - Yes

 

Folding/quick de-rig wings - Would be a real benefit, for keeping it at home

 

Composite construction - Maybe

 

Metal construction - Also maybe

 

Rag and tube/wood - not so keen, but then depends on other items in list

 

Open cockpit - No

 

High/low wing - really can't decide on this one

 

Factory/homebuilt - really can't decide on this one

 

Kit - could be a possibility, all down to overall cost really

 

Glass cockpit - I'd be happy with clocks, dials and guages

 

Engine - Rotax or Jab, but open to suggestions, dependant on aircraft mainly

 

Cost - well nothing brand new, apart from kit

 

Well that's a start, hope it will bring on plenty of advice.

 

Redair.

 

 

[Case]

Red,

 

I've been through this for a couple of years now and I know how you feel. I've done the demo flights. I've been to Norromine. I've search the web. There are so many things you can do. So many choices. So much info you'd think it would be easy.

 

My aim has always been to build. Not so much for price but for the challange and satisfaction. I've almost made my decission but it hasn't been simple and straight forward. It's a big cost item in time or money or both.

 

There have been many times when I've said - 'That's the one'. 'That's what I'll get'. 'No doubt about it.' Only to change my mind for some reason. Asking the question here will also provide good, usefull information but in the end you have to make an expensive choice and live with it.

 

My advice is to make sure your choice is attractive to it's next prospective owner eg. Easy (and safe) to fly, does 100kts in cruise and can fly for 4+ hours without needing a drink. I think most buyers would see these attributes as essential. I probably haven't helped much but at least you know your not the only one struggling with the decission.

 

 

[Flyer]

Redair

 

Go to the Vans aircraft site and have a look at the Vans RV12 prototype. http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm

 

It is a kit, all metal construction, rotax912 powered, cruise at 110knots, low wing and comes from one of the most sucessful kit manufacturers in the world.

 

It was due to to be released late last year but hasn't happened yet. I'm waiting with bated breath...it'll be great if the other RV's are anything to go by.

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Smokey]

Redair

 

There are a lot of tyre kickers at Narromine, I'd suggest that if you wish to get some test flights in aircraft up there you contact the manufacturers/distributers well before easter to arrange any test flights, that way they know you're serious.

 

There was a gathering for manufacturers/distributers a little while back, specifically set up so people could test fly multiple types in one place at one time. I think it was timed so people flying to Avalon could drop in. Perhaps they will run it again. I did hear a rumour that it was rather expensive for anyone wishing to display their aircraft so that might mean some may find it uneconomical to attend.

 

Mark

 

 

[Yenn]

If you go to Vans site, dont stop at the RV12. The plane I would like is the RV4 as flown round the world several times by John Yohansen, or even a RV6.

 

For good looks try a Murphy Rebel with a radial engine, or even a Pulsar.

 

I have been toying with a design for an occasional 2 seater, to carry 2 or 1 with camping gear, and that seems to be tha same as a Cessna 150 or 172.

 

Narromine will be the place to go.

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Thanks to all who have tried to help so far! I realise that I am not only asking how long a piece of string is, but how thick and how many knots are in it.

 

I just seem to be stuck with more questions than answers at the moment, and due to the large investment that will be required, I really want to try to make the right choice first time around.

 

The more aircraft I look at, and the more magazines I read, the more confused I'm becoming. I'm a bit like a kid in a sweet-shop... if only I could afford to buy the whole shop!

 

At least I have discounted Trikes and Tailwheel aircraft from my list of possibles, that's a start. (no offence to anyone who flys either, personal choice only).

 

If anyone happens to know this coming Saturday's winning Lotto numbers, please PM me and that might solve my problems, otherwise, the more infomation I can get from owners, regarding good or bad purchase decisions, the better.

 

Thankis, Redair.

 

 

[Guest J430]

Simple couple of questions

 

What do you want to use it for, local flying, in and out of short strips, or long distance touring? Next...2 seats or more? What do you need.

 

Then, what is your budget? Once i know this I can help you spend your money!!

 

Cheers

 

J

 

PS..........Your avitar is the perfect plane.....the ultimate piston two seater!

 

 

[Flyer]

Redair

 

try to get a fly in an RV. You will understand the RV grin. I notice you're in SA. Have a chat to Jon Johanson (3 times round the world in an RV4). Check him out at http://www.flymore.com.au/

 

Make a list of what you want in a plane and a budget to go with it. it will help with the ultimate decision. You will also find, like your first house that after you've bought it, there will be things that you want different...

 

regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Do you know how fast you want to go? 60 knots or 160, or somewhere between?

 

That might help.

 

I am biased, but value for money wise, you can't beat a Jab - hands down, no competition.

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Thanks each. Firstly, in answer to J 430's question... Yes. The thing is, I want to do it all, and that's where the problem starts, nothing I've seen will do it all. One thing is certain though, 2 seats. I really need to decide whether to sacrifice speed for short field ability, or go fast and limit where I can get in. At the moment I do think I will be leaning more towards STOL rather then speed. As for the Mustang, if money was no concern, then without doubt I would be after a Titan T-51 80% Mustang. Bit on the expensive side though, as looking at $120 - $180k. (OK so it's tailwheel which I didn't want, it's not STOL and it's not really practical, but hey, I love em!).

 

Flyer, now I'm really starting to worry... the 1st house we bought was falling down, and we rebuilt it from the inside out. It took nearly 13 years and plenty of $$$$.

 

Brentc, I agree, the Jabs are nice, and are on my possible list. Not really because they meet my list requirements, but because they are popular, (that says much) and seem good value. Only drawback is that I would not be able to keep one at home, which would lead to the whole problem of hangar space and cost, (if it is available in my area). Also the problem of having to cart tools around the countryside every time I wanted to work on it.

 

Thanks again, the search continues.

 

Has anyone bought an aircraft that they have really disliked, (for whatever reason)?

 

You know, bought a STOL and hated the slow speed, bought a whiz-ship and got fed up not being able to land in the rough, or just bought somethiing that didn't meet expectations? There are a lot of fine looking planes on the the web, but then the manufacturers are a bit biased.

 

Regards, Redair.

 

 

[Guest keiran ryan]

Hi Redair

 

I have been in the same predicament as you for some months and it is an interesting exercise to go through especially as your idea of the right aircraft changes.

 

For what it is worth, these are the steps I have taken, and a few thoughts based on my reflections.

 

1) Don't hurry!

 

2) Speak to as many pilots as you can. They will invariably try to convince you their aircraft is the best, and it probably is -- for them. Many will be very happy to take you for a ride. This is one of the remarkable things about RA,people are genuinely interested in helping.

 

3) Fly as many as you can either through the network or distributors.

 

4)All designs are compromises between conflicting characteristics. The question becomes which design features best meet your needs

 

5)I drew up a matrix which included the key features I wanted and gave some of the really important features an extra weighting. In my case safety features were given a higher score than many other attributes. (engine reliability, stall speed, STOL etc)The choice of selection criteria in the matrix can be a very informative exercise in itself.

 

Resale value, repair costs, ease of repair etc need to be factored in when considering various construction types

 

Most of the 7 aircarft I have flown have been great to fly and I have gained a great deal by speaking to their owners.The process has helped me refine my selection criteria based on first hand experience. For my particular needs, range is important and a cruising speed of 100 is also important as I plan to fly with other aircraft with that capability. I also consider STOL to be an important safety feature. Folding wings seemed unnecessary until I spoke to an owner who hangers his aircraft with wings folded underneath two others and saves a considerable amount.

 

The three aircraft that have come closest to fitting my needs are the Foxbat, Storch, and the Eurofox. I must admit having a prejudice against the Eurofox because I thought it was just a tarted up Gazelle. Quite independently 3 flying instuctors suggested I check it out and as they know a great deal more than I ever will I had a fly in one at my local airfield--end of prejudice!! At present it is the pick of the bunch for my particular needs.

 

Regards and happy hunting.

 

Keiran

 

(If you want details of my perception of the planes I have checked out let me know)

 

 

[Guest J430]

If you need a STOL go for a ride in a Savanah with the VG's, seem to do 90 knots max in cruise and are very good out of a 140m strip.......but with some very clear approach and departure paths.

 

If you want a bit more speed and not a lot ofextra runway how about a Tecnam.

 

I know a couple of the Tecnam RG's available up here in QLD and are excellent buying and very low hours.

 

One is a member here going overseas and the other is buying a Helicopter.

 

PM me if you are serious about them.

 

J

 

PS........what Brent says is pretty much the case.......for a change:laugh:;)

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

STOL SCHMOL

 

The key to this is a single word: Compromise.

 

Yes some a/c can get off the ground in ~60 metres, but a Tecnam will reliably get off in a couple of hundred. To paraphrase Dirty Harry "Do you have the guts to operate out of a two hundred metre strip...well do you?"

 

The Tecnam (et al) will quite comfortably operate out of 400 metres. It's not STOL but it cruises at 100+ knots. You spend much more time going places than taking off and landing. Here's my list:

 

• Gets off the ground like it means it (sorry J160);
   
   
  
• Cruises at 100 knots plus;
   
   
  
• Doesn't look like a toy;
   
   
  
• Has a positive reputation;
   
   
  
• Can sustain a positive ROC loaded, in an Aussie summer (sorry J160);
   
   
  
• Is comfortable for 4 hours plus;
   
   
  
• Has endurance for 4 hours plus - does your bladder?
   
   
  
• Has the fuel in a different compartment to me;
   
   
  
• Doesn't look like a cr*p can;
   
   
  
• Has a Rotax 912 ULS;
   
   
  
• Has a nice distributor;
   
   
  
• Has a reasonable payload and lets you stow more than a handbag behind the seats;
   
   
  
• Has 2 seats
   
  

 

What do you want to do with this a/c? Write two sentences that say what you want to do and then explore which a/c meet those needs. My list above comes from doing that exercise.

 

Note I'm not bashing Jabs - I'm not allowed to

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest disperse]

STOL ........ SPEED ????? Thats the two things that do not go together as they are the two sides of the one scale ...... Balance

 

For me I've come down to 2. Garry Morgans new Sierra, or the Lightning.

 

I want to be able to do long distances MORE than wanting to land in any paddock.

 

So the Sierra has the removable wings ...... and around 20 grand cheaper. But more work in building it and 20kts slower (approx)

 

The Lightning is a more complete kit, cruises at 150kts . But the wings don't come off (EASY)

 

I haven't flown either ...... and may not even buy either but thats where I'm at.

 

However if the MONEY Angel happens to visit ....... Then these choices may just open up a lot more

 

 

[blueshed]

Texan TopClass

 

Goes slow, lands short, takes of short, cruises at 110kts or there abouts, only problem is when in the hot Australian Sun I like my hat on my head, I don't usually sit on it. It's low wing you may have figured!

 

The other ? is how big or small are you? and do you want to take big or small people with you? Ian Had a really good write up about the what a CT is capable of!

 

Just some more info to keep the brain ticking!

 

Hope you find it or them one day, maybe one for each day of the week!

 

Cheers Guy Remember Jamestown Flyin and Hangar Dinner April 19th 2008;)

 

 

[Flyer]

I'll agree with Blueshed on the Texan. I'd put the cruise at 105knots to be comfortable though.

 

It'll land in a couple hundred meters without flaps (I've yet to use them) and take off in the same distance. It'll hold a climb of 900fpm at max weight, burns 16lph and is easy to fly and has great visibility.

 

Downside....wear a hat and some sunscreen or you will pay with sunburn.

 

Good to see your not Jabiru bashing there Pelorus32 .... The J160 climbs fine ;);) (when its 20 degrees)

 

I'm expecting the J170 to be much better. ;)

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Phil, sounds like you're looking forward to the arrival of this beast at YTDN!

 

Complete with Jabiru embossed Key-Ring.

 

 

 

[Guest Redair]

Well, it looks like I need to do some more work on my list/lists and see if I can narrow it down a bit more. I'm hoping to get to Narromine this year, so I doubt if my list will have been reduced to the final choice until after that. Beware all of you that will be attending... I might be asking lots of questions!!!

 

As for tecnams and retractable gear, mmmm not too sure about that, I was looking more for a simple design with less to go wrong! But I live to be converted!

 

Regards, Redair.

 

 

[Mick]

More Options

 

Hi Redair,

 

One of the best combinations of Stol and cruise is the Evektor Sportstar. It's take off and landing capabilities will surprise you.

 

I have flown one in and out of less than 400m no problem.

 

Yet they still cruise @ 100-110 knots depending on the prop.

 

All metal, excellent corrosion proofing, UV proof canopy so no sun burn.

 

I know where you can get an imaculate second hand one with less than 200 hours on it for a really good price.

 

If you decide that cruise is more important than Stol and you want range, speed and carrying capacity, check out the Skylark at www.hangar1.com.au

 

Cheers

 

Mick

 

 

[BigPete]

Aw c'mon guys be fair - you need to compare the above mentioned aircraft NOT against the J160 :;)4: - BUT put them against the J230 ;) - still cheaper and leaps into the air (much larger wing) and cruises at 120 kts (much larger motor), did I mention the REAR door to load luggage into? :big_grin: High wing (built in shade and rollover protection. Huge fuel capacity. Buy parts at local deli (well, almost).

 

(stepping off my box now....) :big_grin::big_grin::big_grin:

 

regards

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Very true about rollover protection. I recently spotted a pic on another website of an RV7 that rolled over in the US at low speed. It was sitting upside down and I realised that it would be impossible to get out in a hurry, if not at all. Your only hope might have been a sliding canopy however even then it would be very difficult. I'm thinking you'd definitely need a safety smash hammer (like that fitted standard in the Cirrus) to get out. If it had caught on fire, there would have been no hope of survival.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

oooh yuk...lets not think to much about that..

 

Go the jabs mate..aussie designed and built, tough, fast, economical.. id be leaning away from an LSA or j160...the 170 or 230 would be a serious choice.. thast extra big wing seems to make a hell of a differance.. but most important is value for money... i hear there replacement parts are quite reasonable compared to others, and they are a well proven design

 

my 2 cents

 

 

[Guest J430]

GOOOOOOOO the Mighty J430

 

Its exactly what BigPete said......fast, sold, will dust off all but Brent in his shorter wing, and with full fuel 2 up front can still take 100kg in the back!!!! thats either 2 pax or some serious luggage.

 

Of course its not RAA registerable.....so go the J230, and who takes that much baggage anyway:;)4:

 

at least with less MTOWit goes even better than at 700kg!

 

J;)