Training standards and weather

[motzartmerv]

I copied this post from the incident thread, togcentral suggested it would be better discussed here..

 

Good post Tony..You've obviously been in this game for a long time and have a better understanding then most regarding the operation and managment side of things..

 

A problem that i have noticed myself with the training syllabus is this..

 

A person can obtain there ticket by passing the bak and then a flying test...that test is usually about 1 to 1 and 1/2 hours and goes through the sequences taught, stalls, steep turns precautionary search and landing gliding etc..

 

and then go on and get the x country endorsement..now, when i was getting my licence and x country end we would check the weather and only ever fly in the direction of the best weather..never would we attempt to go into even remotly marginal conditions..Beautifull blue skies are great to fly in but, after getting my licence i was on my own..i had to gain experiance with the weather by doing it..it was nearly a recipe for disaster...sure you can be told what a bad day looks like on paper, but untill you see it and see how weather moves in and changes within the course of a flight you can't have a propper understanding...this was brought home to me recently when i was trapped below mountain tops with weather on the ground in all but one direction..i was even looking at paddocks on the ground to get out of the air..now, at one point i found what looked like a nice paddock but had high terrain pretty much all around it..i was heavy, it was 34 deg and very humid and in a jabiru...on reflection, if i did go down and investigate that strip (paddock) i may not have been able to outclimb that terrain either after landing or on climbing away if it was no good..but at the time that didnt cross my mind...luckily i decided to head the only direction that had a clearance between the mountains and th cloudbase of aroun 600 feet, and closing fast..we shot through and made it to the coast...but all in all, pretty poor airmenship on my part for even taking off that day...

 

my poiunt is, that as students, most instructors take us touring in fine conditions...i havn't heard many stories of an instructor and a student having to do a real divert and mabye an overnight to wait out weather...

 

Weather in my mind is the most deadly thing to us ultralighters..and i know of a few crashes where it has been the major factor...the guy in the drifta trying to squeeze through a gap in cloud and mountain recently jumpes to mind..

 

I am currently getting hours up to gain an instructor rating...when i do start teachin pilots, i intend to take them to the edge of marginal weather..to see what it looks like from the air, to decide early to divert and go around it or even better go back...to always have a backdoor available...these things are easily said, but need to be seen from the cockpit in a realtime sence to get the gravity of it..

 

Sure stalling and spinning r dangerous pastimes...but how many of us get close on a normal flight to this happening...??the weather is always there..

 

I would be interested to hear from other instructors out there on how they handle this part of the teaching...i think that telling students not to fly into cloud is no where near enuff...

 

Cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok then...no instructors wanna play...what about some of you experianced pilots....what do you reckon...am i being silly?? should it be left to the new pilot to find out for himself?? I have read some posts that included some pics mind you, of guys flying in what could only be described as soup..where do YOU draw the line and bug out??

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Whilst I have some sympathy with your points motzartmerv, they are, not unsuprisingly, based on your recent & rather scary experience. Obviously I wasn't there so I have no knowledge of the specific circumstances but, in my experience, situations like that don't just happen "out of the blue" without any warning. The responsibility of the pilot and the emphasis of the training should be on avoiding getting into the trap in the first place by recognising the potential and always leaving yourself safe exit options. You recognised this yourself by your comment on taking off that day !

 

The only thing "recent" about the drifter accident at cunninghams gap is the publication of the investigation results but I won't get on that hobby horse again. Ultimately it seems pretty clear that the cause of the fatality was press-on-itis not CFIT. I pretty confident that the same root cause applies in most of that type of incident.

 

I know some schools do fly with students in less than perfect conditions - I have seen school planes doing circuits with a cloud base only a little above circuit height and in showers. This is done so the student can experience more marginal conditions but any reputable instructor has to keep the flight both legal and safe. I'm not sure about actually completing practice force landings (as opposed to going around). Many school planes are now very expensive assets and hence have insurance cover which may well exclude landings at non-recognised airfields. I am aware of schools that do include diversions as part of the cross-country training but to do so requires the students to invest significantly more time and money by choosing to do a cross-country course significantly longer (& more thorough) then the legal minimum. I'm not sure what extra would be learnt by making the diversion an overnight stop & I suspect this might prove both problematic for instructors and expensive for students.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your assertions about stalling and spinning - they are only dangerous done inadvertently or at too low a height (or in the case of spinning in a plane not approvd for it). Given how little ultralight accident is available its hard to be sure but I suspect that stall / spin following engine failure does kill more people than CFIT.

 

I believe all of us should regularly practice stall recognition and recovery with minimum height loss. Its not something to be scared of - if you are then go and get a refresher with an instructor who isn't. I would also like to see all 3-axis pilots have a lesson in spins in either a glider or suitable GA. Just because the planes we fly typically aren't approved for spins doesn't mean that they won't happen as the accident stats show. I understood the theory and the recovery procedure & I thought I knew what to expect but the first spin I did completely blew me away. If I had been solo I would have been dead but after an hour of practise I could both enter and recover from a spin unassisted. I still wasn't comfortable with them but it might just save my life someday money well spent in my opinion.

 

One final thought - I think the minimum hours requirement to start an instructor training course is farcical. After 75 hours I didn't even realise how little I knew. I don't know if this has any relevence to the scenarios under discussion ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[IanR]

I am not sure how much training would cater for pushing on into deteriorating conditions. When you are being trained the instructors have to ensure you are in VFR conditions - which means not getting yourself into a situation where there is no way out - bit of a catch 22.

 

My view is that it comes down to common sense and treating flying as fun - which is why I assume most RAA pilots do it !! Pressure from passengers or yourself to get to the destination no matter what will eventually lead to disaster.

 

I am not sure what is covered in the RAA sylabus but planning alternates is very important.

 

When it all comes down to it - good airmanship is what you need to concentrate on - and that is driven mainly by yourself.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Crezzi..I understand what your saying, but im afraid you missed my point (or my point wasn't clear)..I fully appreciate the need for stall training, what sane minded pilot would disagree..I know we fly for fun, and that fun often takes us over long distances where the weather can change and be quite different from the forcast..on my trip i was under pressure to return the jab before the weekend as it was fully booked..in the end i didnt let that pressure force me to keep flying as we overnighted at maryburough and taree..on christmass mind you..

 

my point is this...the syllabus is 20 hours minimum with 5 hours xcountry..duel and solo..what practical experiance can be gained by flying only a few hours in lovely conditions?? And while doing ccts with a low cloud base may hel;p some what, with the strip beneath you the whole time i would hardly say this prepares a student for whats out there..Basically i think more emphasis should be given on the weather..And i wholehartedly agree that RAA pilots should have to do some spins in a rated aeroplane..anyone who hasn't seen one from the cockpit has little to no chance of recovering from one...and at low alt...forget about it..

 

I have done spin training in a skyfox..i know it was illegal and more importantly so did my instructor..yes it was a big no no, but im glad for it..like you say, they are a dissaster for anyone untrained on them...But the biggest lesson i learned and it wasnt untill a few years later, is not to spin an aircraft unrated for it as my instructor died along with his son when the wing came off his skyfox..the report sighted a carroded rod and exxesive loading on the airframe from doing things like spins and loops..

 

I wasn't saying that instructors should overnight with students..that would be a practical nightmare...i was saying that we never hear about it because it doesn't happen..it doesn't happen because they only ever fly in perfect weather...how many of us RAA pilots can say we only ever fly in perfect conditions?? lately, none of us would be flying much..hehe

 

So you don't agree that it was the weather that killed that unfortunate drifta pilot...get there itis?? he didnt run out of fuel...he flew into imc and spun in didnt he?? its not just RAA pilots either..its GA...look at the stats...there are a hell of a lot of weahter related prangs..alot more then inadvertant spins, but perhaps both occur simultainiously, ie, a pilot loses sight of the ground and in an attempt to turn out of the cloud on instruments which he's not trained on rolls over and advers yaw casues a spiral path and or a spin??My current instructor whos been training airline pilots for years sights this as the biggest cause of lowtime pilot accidents...and even puts RAA pilots on the simulator to demonstrate the phenomonem..

 

The 75 hours for the instructor course is a bit low i know..but i didnt write the rules...im useing it as a cheap way to get hours up for a cpl..But, i will have to pass the PMI and a flying exam..so obviously a person won't be passed unless there skilss are up to the task hey???...well...in a perfect world anyway;)

 

cheers

 

 

[facthunter]

Practice.

 

Only ONCE, have I been with a student when the conditions are on MY limit and one clear path out available, and still legal. You cannot just conjure up the conditions to co-incide with the student being there. Also I would not have expected the student to evaluate the situation to the degree I did as he does not have the experience. He was much more anxious than I was, and relied on my judgement. By constantly explaining my plan of action he no doubt got some benefit from it, and some assurance, at the time. The essential thing is to not get into a situation that is going to lead you into a potentially tragic result about which plenty has been written already. Descending into a place where you cannot outclimb the surrounding terrain is a situation that you should well avoid, and it is a good thing that you realised it. The instructing process cannot cover all the possibilities. You are the pilot-in command, and the environment that you operate in and your aircraft's capabilities, are assessed by you and you make the decision to GO or NOT GO, based on your situational awareness. This grows with time and experience , so the wise pilot starts off cautiously to give him/herself the time to get the experience, and of course, learn by the mistakes of others. It's safer and cheaper... Nev..

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Hey Moz, I am replying as promised.

 

Been a bit busy today and had to fit in a quick test flight as well – nice to be back up again after a couple of weeks of howling gales and rain!

 

OK – instructing and weather. I will give some broad brush viewpoints and fine those down a little to some examples.

 

I agree totally with you that the more you teach, the more exposure that you give a student, so notionally the safer and wiser pilot that will be produced.

 

However there are a devil of a lot of practicalities to face and the biggest is money, consequent commercial pressure, and (to a surprisingly considerable extent) emotive pressure that “if I do not get my pilot certificate in close to the stated 20 hours then I am a ding-a-ling and people will noticeâ€Â.

 

None of those primarily emotive drives makes a great deal of sense in a practical flying training system – but they are nevertheless very real!

 

To make the situation more easy to work with there is a laid down minimum standard that a student must meet and a consequent flying training syllabus needs to be in place to meet the standard.

 

It is that minimum standard that becomes the foundation stone of the commercial and money aspect of flying training. In principle students want the lot but they will only pay for the minimum and that is what any flying school has to assume and cater for – students can always have more if they ask for it.

 

The minimum standard must demonstrate that they, by themselves, know sufficient to be able to avoid getting into drastic trouble. But I agree with you – when it comes to weather the difference between reality and theory may be literally poles apart, and especially when you begin pushing the very clearly stated VFR envelope.

 

A great deal however still can be done but we have to be practical about what schools can do that is meaningful. Let us look into that a little.

 

This is awkward for me because I did a lot of my flying in filthy UK weather conditions where slant visibility from even circuit height may only be four or five miles and I totally stuffed my eyes by repeated glare exposure via close proximity flying to low cloud. At age 64 I still need glasses for nothing but I am almost blind if I do not wear sunglasses when outside!

 

So I taught as a matter of course right up against dirty weather and my students learnt accordingly. In Australia it is very different and you can normally see into the middle of next week! But when it gets bad it gets real bad and may do so very quickly!

 

As a school cannot lay the weather on to do this “awareneness†training what can they do? A surprising amount actually – but it really depends how a school is set up and what its customers are like – what they want and therefore how receptive they are.

 

Personally I have spent my 40 odd years of flying in a purely recreational environment. That is what I believe in but I also believe in professional standards and used every opportunity that I could to impart my experience and knowledge beyond what the basic syllabus calls for. Surprisingly perhaps this is a curious mixture of negatives and positives. But you need the recreational environment where people are not just there for “todays lesson†for an hour and have to get back to work or whatever, but have a bit of time to learn and are genuinely interested or can be made that way!

 

So a few instances:

 

• So it is not flyable and obviously so. Good opportunity to have a met lecture on what is actually happening out there and why.
   
   
  
• It is is marginally flyable but deteriorating – again why this is so, what is happening, how bad is it going to get. How about flying in the marginal conditions to see what it looks like from the air – but keep it safe and VFR. Maybe experience VFR closing in a little. How about relating that to getting a met forecast and what that actually means?
   
   
  
• You have 8/8ths blue above low st. cu. What is the significence. Drill in some pointers: In low cloud conditions (even scattered cloud) the cloud is twice as close as it looks, twice as low as it looks, there is twice as much of it than it looks, and when you are climbing, or descending, through those huge gaps visible from the ground – in the air it looks like 8/8ths and your slant visibility falls to half a mile! Go show them this if it is safe to do so!]
   
   
  
• Visibility: Sometimes you have smoke haze from bush fires. Seize the opportunity and fly just a circuit or two with each student. You are preparing them for adverse cloud conditions but also checking how good they are at holding an attitude with no horizon and orientation as you can only see a couple of miles slant vis!
   
   
  
• Isolated Cu. Pick a spot with an isolated cloud such that you are sure there is nobody the other side doing the same thing and bore towards it. Demonstrate how hard it is to see the distance from cloud and the sure pointer is the slant visibility dropping very rapidly the closer you get and that is the break off point or you are going to be IMC with no instruments and probably no training!
   
   
  
• The “good flying days†where you will not fly for good reason! Explain why!
   
  

 

On that latter point – two totally different scenarios and they illustrate the cutting edge of weather when it seems OK but is far from so.

 

• A usual early morning start at Watts and a clear blue sky. 12 to 15 knots westerly cross wind but variable on speed and direction with the windsock kicking. Lenticulars out to the West and despite the wind speed the wind had an edge and bite to it.
   
  

 

I refused to fly. I knew that I had a clear air rotor nearly on the airfield and our Thruster had neither the power to outclimb the downdraughts and I did not fancy the turbulence that would take me to the limits of control. I know my airfield and its weather!

 

But it looked OK if a bit windy and I had three students. A raw beginner, a guy on a conversion and a first officer off an international B777. They all looked sideways at me and I explained my decision and drew diagrams of wave systems that I am only too familiar with. They still did not like the decision but accepted it. I was not about to give them a real life demonstration of my reasons – but I gave my reasons.

 

• I was CFI of a gliding club and we had another club visiting for a mutual fly in. Virtually no soaring due to overcast with a light wind – excellent training weather - and eventually I became uneasy and my unease grew.
   
  

 

The temperature and humidy was steadily rising and I became terribly suspicious of an embedded cu-nb in the cloud cover although there was no signs of one. I ordered flying closed and the aircraft put away immediately. I had a near riot on my hands but used my authority that was grudgingly obeyed. Within two minutes of the last aircraft being secured we had the first lightning strike into the centre of the airfield where 30 minutes previously we had been putting 1500’ of steel wire into the sky and you do not get a better lightning conductor than that!

 

The members did not go near me – just looked and were very quiet. I could not explain exactly why I had ordered what I had. I have played with these things before – they have teased me, tormented me and terribly frightened me so often in the past. Eventually I got to know them just as I now know the winds and read terrain all the time when flying in windy conditions.

 

How do you teach that? You cannot teach experience only the product of experience when it is practical to do so. Sometimes it can only be by example of your actions followed by an explanation to show what the decision was based upon.

 

You are quite right Moz, there should be, and can be, more depth of instruction but it depends so heavily on the student motivation, type of school, environment the school establishes, the instructors motivation – and above all the instructors experience.

 

It is not something that you can regulate but more encourage an environment where such teaching may happen practically.

 

I will be most interested in hearing other views of students, pilots and instructors alike.

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx Nev..yes u r 100% right..its up to the PIC and conjurring up weather is obviously not an option.. I learned more on my flight up to qld and back then would ever be possible in a training scenario.. i feel that i wasn't a pilot untill i found myself having to make descisions...my planned route was from thangool to moree then onto camden..i ended up going down the coast, and i mean right down the coast, i just hopped from strip to strip and didnt decided about the next leg untill i had overflown then next strip, then looked ahead and even called center a few times for updates..This method was in my mind a safe way to do it as the weather was really bad on the ranges and was never more then 10 miles away from us...but by bouncing from strip to strip i felt i could either land at then next strip or go back to the one i just left...and we did this a few times...we got turned around at caboolture but becasue i had just overflown caloundra i knew exactly where it was, what conditions where like there and so on...we did this again at taree, i overflew the strip and headed south towards newcastle and flew right up to the white wall and decided it was a no go and turned back the few minutes and overnighted at taree..the trip back from thangool took over 9 hours, but i was never more then 30 minutes away from my last or next landing spot..and keeping the beach within gliding distance helped calm the nerves aswell..

 

Brisbane center where exellent..on a few occasions at my request they radioed acft in the area i was headed for a weather update..this worked a treat..Getting live info regarding cloud etc from dash 8 pilots and the like was an exelent resource..

 

cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tony, once again an exellent post..The experianc and experiances of you high air timers is invalluable to us rookies.. Great story about the conditions on that day, some surprised faces around the hanger that day i bet...

 

I fully empathise with your thoughts regarding the practicality of giving students experiance in these matters.. What about purposfully flying towards bad weather..??at camden its often quite clear all day but messy over the range...what about purposfully planning a flight right into the bad stuff with full knowlage you are not going to get through...obviously keeping a close eye on whats happening behind you is a must for this, but would give students (me included) a taste of what to expect, when to make the descision to turn around, redo the flightplan for the return trip and so on...it just seems to me that those 5 hours could be used more responsibly with a little carefull planning..sure, all instructors are going to give you a divert or 2, but how much better to get a real one??

 

Thanx again for yuor detailed response...This forum is a wealth of kknowlage...i wish i had discoverd it when i was still a student...hehe...well, i am still a student, but when i was in the training...

 

cheers Tony

 

 

[Guest terry]

Mos Mos Mos, may I suggest you re read your posts and analyze your comments. Your experience on cross country is a learning experience in it self of which you should be glad. Every situation cannot be taught by an instructor nor is it his job to do so. What he should be doing is give you the skills to be able to stay safe as you continue to learn and build on what you have learnt as his student. I recall my instructor commenting to me regarding another young student of his that was unusually competent for low hours with no previous experience but the problem was she was too cocky and confident. In his opinion this is not always a good attitude for continued growth as a pilot. Your responsibility as a pilot to yourself and any passengers you might carry is too continue to practice what you have learnt and also continue to add to your knowledge base. If you continue your line of thought the next thing you would advocate is minimum hours should change from 20 to 40 and so on and so on. My Instructor said to me upon granting me my ticket, now the learning begins, what you have is a starting point the rest is up to you. I don't think I've let him down. I think it's time we took responsibility for ourselves as pilots to do the above. How many hours flying have you done [all pilots] in the last 12 months practicing your flying skills, and I don't mean flying from a-b I mean practicing flying skills. If I can jump on my band waggon now It's education not regulation that achieves in all facets of life.

 

With kindest Regards Terry

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I've no problem with your point about it being desirable for student pilots to be exposed to a range of weather conditions. But I'm far from convinced that not hearing about instructors having to divert with students is a bad thing. Wouldn't this simply illustrate poor flight planing in the first place ? The bad example would be compounded if the student got to thinking because he had flown in or close to cloud with the instructor that he might get away with also. But there is a huge diffence between not flying illegally / unsafely and only flying in "perfect" weather conditions.

 

Most of the training aircraft don't have a full panel of IMC instruments and most ultralight instructors don't have IR either. So, quite apart from the legal aspects, how could a school be expected to take their students into this sort of scenario to demonstrate how dangerous it is ?

 

I think you misunderstood my point on CFIT. No it wasn't the weather that killed him - the low cloud didn't mysteriously appear and catch him unawares. What killed him was the decision to try and fly through a pass in the mountains in an attempt to get home and then not making the decision to abort until it was too late. From the report - "He advised his wife that it was raining heavily in the area, however he intended to be in Boonah in around 2 hours time. His wife told him that it was raining heavily at their home and suggested to him that he should wait in Warwick until the weather improved. The pilot told his wife that he would attempt to cross the great Dividing Range on a direct track Warwick to Boonah and if the weather didn't allow that he would try to get through Cunningham's Gap, failing that he would return to Warwick".

 

I have no specific knowledge of this tragic accident but find it hard to imagine that it could have occured in 5000m visibility and the report further states that the plane was flying just above the trees. The schools I am aware of emphasise the importance of flying both legally & safely and they constantly set an example of doing so. Was the school that trained this pilot (or indeed your school) any different in this respect ? I suspect (& hope) not but pilots repeatedly allow themselves to get in these situations and, as you point out, CFIT do happen and far too regularly. But I venture that not many were because the pilot suddenly found himself in a spontaneously appearing cloud bank ?

 

At the end of the day it just isn't possible in 25 or 50 or 100 hours to experience every circumstance a lifetime of flying might throw at you. When you get a pilot certificate it is a licence to learn and with it comes the responsibility to do so safely. If the CASA DVD on vfr pilots flying in imc isn't sufficient then, on the way back from experiencing spins in a GA plane, ask the instructor to let you trying flying on instruments in cloud or under the hood. Then try it with a partial panel to simulate the level of instrumentation in a typical ultralight.

 

BTW I wasn't having a go at you personally re the instructor hours - I understand you are only following the rules as they stand. As was observed on a different thread, number of hours isn't necessarily a good guide to experience anyway. You will discover that the PMI course is about how to effectively transfer knowledge to the student - my point is that with 75 hours experience that knowledge is usually going to be fairly limited.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

Reality.

 

Motza your trip sounds like a great experience, and you planned it, ie. there was method in it, and you made it work for you. This is MANAGING the flight and there is more than one way to do it. When you have a very experienced person with you, you do many things differently. You will try to impress him, or you will do what you think he wants you to do so as to pass the exercise, not necessarily what you would do on your own. Any decisions you make are done in the knowledge that if they are seriously in error they will be picked up, and they are a bit hypothetical therefore even though you are in a real environment when it is happening. You are consciously/or unconsciously, relying on the other person.

 

When you are on your own, (even though you may have passenger(s) it's a very different matter, the buck stops with you. You really have to do it all, and it should be within your capability, not beyond it. After ALL flights, a self debrief:- What did a do that was dumb today, or how could I have managed better? might be a way to improve. The challenge is always there to get it better. No-one ever does it perfectly. Nev..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Terry...i don't believe that i ever said we need more hours...education vs regulation is exactly my point...my point is that we never get to even se bad weather before we get out ticket...thats all...

 

And i make it a point on evry flight to practice one engine failure..it doesn't always happen but i do try.. i fear my point isn't coming across, so ill simply stop trying for fear of more harshness directed towards me..

 

Crezzi...i take your point..thankyou... But i do have one thing to say..With rgards to the poor flightplanning, isnt that a very likely scenario for a new pilot to plan a flight poorly?? or does our bak and xcountry exam make us all expert flightplanners with no possability of missinterpreting weather forcasts and so on..im not going to go on about it, but from personal experiance, i wish i could have atleast seen some crap weather beefore i was on my own a million miles from home...But i do take full responsability for what could have happend..i trusted too much in the weather report and not enuff in what my eyes could see...It wasn't my insructors fault or the RAA's licencing syllabus...it was poor airmenship on my part for taking off, as i said in the original post...And i have learned my lesson believe me... it just would have been nice to learn this lesson with someone who knew more then i did...

 

Nev..thats a very vallid point...what we do with instructors isn't exactly whjat we would do on our own...cheers

 

Im a little miffed...i posted this thread to generate discussion about how we might better use our 5 hours of xcountry training...

 

I have seen pictures on this very forum of some of you guys flying in far from perfect conditions...one particular picture looks like they are IN CLOUD..... one way of us low timers to gain knowlage is by asking you oldtimers about it...

 

my 2 cents

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

With rgards to the poor flightplanning, isnt that a very likely scenario for a new pilot to plan a flight poorly?? or does our bak and xcountry exam make us all expert flightplanners with no possability of missinterpreting weather forcasts and so on

You are right - it most certainly does not make somebody an expert ! Nor does any amount of experience guarentee that you always get it right. I guess my answer would refer to Tony's post - the value would be in explaining why undertaking a specific flight in prevaling weather conditions wouldn't be a good idea.

 

I do understand the sentiment of wishing you had experienced the crappy weather during your training but I suspect some of the students up here would consider that you were fortunate to have such good weather during your training ;-) Even after you have qualified, I'm sure most schools would be happy if you asked to go up with an instructor in marginal (but legal and safe) conditions so you can get the experience.

 

As an aside I find the frankness in your posts commendable - not only are you analysing the decisions and actions you have taken but you are prepared to do so publically.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Crezzi..thankyou...and i take your point...perhaps some trips up with an instructor post licence would be a good thing...There was plenty of bad weather around during my training, but we never flew in it or even near it....my whole point...

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

"I would also like to see all 3-axis pilots have a lesson in spins in either a glider or suitable GA. Just because the planes we fly typically aren't approved for spins doesn't mean that they won't happen as the accident stats show."

 

Crezzi,

 

In the sort of circumstances where an inadvertent spin is likely to occur (ie in the circuit), even someone who is totally up to speed on spin recovery will probably die just coming to grips with what is happening. Training should focus on never allowing the aeroplane to get into a situation where an inadvertent spin may occur.

 

I am not advocating no spin training, but it is more to do with your confidence in the aeroplane and your ability to handle it than it has to do with recovering from an unexpected spin.

 

I have found myself in an unexpected spin on two occassions (while teaching myself aerobatics). Both time took me more than 500' to recover - not a problem cause I had many thousands of feet of air below me. I am VERY familiar with spins and spin recovery having done them in C150 Aerobat, PA38 Tomahawk, Tiger Moth, Harvard, and Blanik and Bosiun (?) gliders.

 

The only time an aeroplane should spin is when you want it to, or when you have lots of air under you - otherwise you will most likely die!

 

Rog

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

As for the weather thing - this is a reflection of the general lack of real world flying among instructors. Not all, obviously, but many.

 

Its often a case of those with limited experience - teaching those with no experience!

 

Rog

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Roger..out of all those acft you have seen spin, which one would you say has the worst spin characteristics?? the terrorhawk?? ive only spun in a skyfox and a blanic glider...and the skyfox was very violent...

 

I think what crezzi was saying is that a spin at any height is a bad day for ANYONE who hasn't seen them before..and yes...not spinning is is the most important thing..

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Rog...in my case i have to dissagree..my current instructor has over 19000 hrs in many types of GA and ultralight acft.. he's been an instructor and commercial pilot since the 50's.. thats why i feel that experiance could be used alot better with regards to weather....

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

The only time an aeroplane should spin is when you want it to, or when you have lots of air under you - otherwise you will most likely die!

Rog

I have NO illusions about the recovery prospects from a low level spin but I still believe that is better to have experienced them (from altitude) - even if the only benefit is to act as incentive to avoid them. Of course the training should be focussed on avoiding them - I'm not advocating that they should be part of the syllabus (though I opresume they still are in gliders ?)

 

Shouldn't this have read "The only time an aeroplane should spin is when you want it to, AND when you have lots of air under you ..." ?

 

John

 

 

[Guest terry]

Dear Mos, I got your point and what I was trying to say is that you answered your own question in your original post and not only did you see the error that you made you also took a hard lesson from it. Hence you have experience now that you never had before so in essence a better pilot. You can't buy experience, well not at a reasonable price [you can't put an old head on young shoulders thing] There are a number of ways to respond to your experience, one is to blame your instructor another is to blame yourself and to be frightened by your situation and yet another is to learn from it and be positively energized buy it that way you'll be out flying again at the earliest possible opportunity. Ah the harshness thing. I wasn't thinking harshly when I wrote my post, you'll need to forgive me I'm not as good with words as I should be.

 

Regards Terry

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

//Coughs discretely\\ If this is going to get into a "spinning thing" (again!) may I suggest that the Moderators carve off the spinning posts to a new thread where it can be debated in isolation.

 

There is more than enough with wx and consequent airmanship to invite a bit of focus on that subject without distraction.

 

Tony

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Terry..no worries mate.. Yep...i did learn bulk heaps from it.. And not taking off that day would have been a much much smarter thing to do.. I guess the old sayings like "its better to be down here wishing you were up then then vice cersa" don't really hit home for lowtimmers like myself untill we experiance it for ourselves...

 

cheers to you all for your input...

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

There is more than enough with wx and consequent airmanship to invite a bit of focus on that subject without distraction.Tony

You are quite right Tony - I apologise if I contributed to the distraction (although it was part of the originating post).

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest RogerRammedJet]

Roger..out of all those acft you have seen spin, which one would you say has the worst spin characteristics?? the terrorhawk??

Yes! .... although a C150 will wind up pretty well if you hold in the spin.

 

..in my case i have to dissagree..my current instructor has over 19000 hrs in many types of GA and ultralight acft..

If he only flies navs in perfect weather then he has let you down rather badly!

 

Rog