Training standards and weather

[Admin]

Sorry guys but I am getting a bit concerned with some statements that are being made in some posts.

 

There is absolutely no need what so ever to use statements in a post against another person. Statements like:

 

get of the grass

 

you are kidding yourself!

 

WILL NOT BE TOLERATED HERE!!!!

 

All they do is rub people up the wrong way - everyone knows that these forums are heavily moderated to keep everything friendly yet there are a few that continually do not know how to make a post without some way degrading another person just because they disagree with them.

 

Try using statements like:

 

xxx I am sorry but I don't agree....

 

xxx in my opinion...

 

A 1 week suspension is very simple to apply - it is just a click by the Administrator :big_grin:

 

 

[motzartmerv]

My appolagies Ian.. i sometimes post threads with curley sentimnets to inspire conversation and sometimes debate regarding subjects that some people often have strong views about.. but the statements you removed where directed at me and didn't offend me at all..

 

I understand the need for a friendly forum and 99.9% of the time thats exactly whjat this site is.. I don't take to much to heart when members express themselv's in the above ways..

 

I do however recall being Highly offended and insulted by a certain member a few weeks ago in my incident at camden thread.. the "argument" went on for some time with no intervention by any of the moderators..While no harsh words were used the sentiments were appauling..and no reasoning with the individual seemed to be possible..So im sure you can understand that i find the moderation a little inconsistant..

 

Cheers

 

 

[Admin]

Merv

 

I would have to sort of agree with the moderation inconsistency but sometimes I and the other moderators just get tied up with other things and I don't get time to jump in as early as I like but I generally always do get around to it.

 

re the Camden thread - I did jump in although a bit late - in fact a member was suspended for a couple of days.

 

There was another thread that you started and I guess you didn't even see one post made in that thread as it was deleted very quickly.

 

Remember it is hard to see consistency in moderation when posts are moderated so quickly at times that people never even get to see posts that are deleted or edited so perhaps there is a degree of consistency (not in terms of time) but no one ever sees it - because it is moderated ;)

 

But remember, none of us like having to moderate posts - I hate it and would much rather it wasn't needed and also whilst a person may not be offended by a statement, someone else reading the post sees a statement and gets the impression that these forums are not that friendly after all - and that Merv I am sure you would agree is not a good reflection on these forums

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ian, absolutly...i agree completly.. I didnt realise any action had been taken re the other thread...my appolagies again.. its a fantastic forum, and im sure all members would agree that keeping it friendly is parramount..

 

Cheers

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Merv,

 

back to your original query which was about training for poor weather. And airing some dirty linen.

 

I trained - second time around - in the great weather of inland Victoria. However I remember one dual xcountry in very nasty, but CAVOK, thermally weather where the instructor said to me " you have cloud above you at 1200 ft AMSL so I want you to fly at 1100 ft (700 ft AGL) and stay there and navigate. Then he said "the cloud's down to 1000 ft AMSL so down you go to 900 ft (500ft AGL) meanwhile we are being bumped and thumped and all the time I had to maintain exactly 500 ft AGL and navigate. Then in the circuit it was "still the same cloud base so do a 500 ft circuit". So a 500 ft ciircuit we did.

 

No the cloudbase was not at 500 ft AGL but yes I did learn. So fast forward:

 

Club flyin to another local club for Sunday lunch. My daughter and I in a Tecnam. The weather starts to drizzle at home so we set off to return home. Soon the cloudbase is well down and the rain is streaming down. We pull back and orbit then try again - still no go, it's below my personal minimums. We look back to where we had come from and it's worse. So we poke forward again. My daughter says "Papa this is crap" and she's right so we backtrack and then head off at 45 degrees to track with a great big highway to follow (IFR). At each step we have an airfield to get out to or an airstrip - often both. After 30 minutes we are down to 1300 feet (900 ft AGL) and it's drizzling heavily but we have strips below and strips behind open to us. The terrain was all low level and flat on this approach. By the time we are in the circuit the cloudbase is at 600 feet AGL. No worries, I'd trained for this so we did a very solid 500 ft circuit and landed cool calm and collected.

 

Did I like it? Not one bit? Did I bust my personal minima? Never. Had I been trained for it? Absolutely. Had I ever flown below a 600 ft AGL cloudbase - not really. Do I practice 500 ft circuits regularly? You bet. Do I do some xcountry at 500 ft AGL every so often? You bet.

 

You can train for it without the real weather. I can tell you on that hot thermally day I was working so hard that it was very comparable - indeed much worse than the real thing.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[poteroo]

There are legal aspects to intentionally flying an aircraft in marginal weather, and doing it with a student might trigger action against an instructor were the student to complain. It's happened in GA. There's also the possibility of so badly frightening your student - that he/she walks away and never returns. Not good for business !!

 

I also carefully consider whether if there will be structural implications with rough wx operations, but it is useful for exploring Va and weight.

 

With the well equipped 3-axis aircraft now around, there's some value in teaching students to do some basic IF - provided you have attitude instrumentation. Then it's possible to teach the classic 180 and let's get out of here!. With attitude instrumentation fitted - it's not difficult to familiarise students with it as early as climbing,S&L,and descending. Good to confirm 'performance' due to attitude changes. I'm of the opinion that trying to fly in marginal VFR without attitude instrumentation is foolhardy in the extreme.

 

When we get to another alternative in murky weather - low level 'scud-running' - I stongly suggest that this isn't an option unless you have some good low level training - and attitude instrumentation. This hasn't been possible in RAA until now - but I'm told by many GA pilots that this training has saved their bacon in marginal wx. Of course, instructors worry about the motives for doing LL training. We'd hate to think that it was for beating up the local pub - when it was intended to help you save your skin in poor wx.

 

But I agree with many of the posts so far - you can only do so much within a syllabus framework. After that, it's a solo learning exercise.

 

As to whether instructors are capable of doing the training - that depends on just what their own experience is, along with their attitude to risk. I'd be more than a bit worried about a 75-100 hr instructor,(even a 300hr one), demonstrating marginal weather flying.

 

happy days,

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Pelerous.. Good post, thanx.. I did do some low ccts 500ft in the skyfox years ago, but none in the jabiru..perhaps i should refresh next time..

 

Poteroo.. thanx for your post.. I get your point regarding the instrument time ...the jab i fly has all the bells and whistles and some instrument training would deffinatly be a good thing, but i can understand why they don't teach it in the RAA syllabus..i have done some instrument time in my GA training, but it basically served to scare me out of ever wanting to go IFR..

 

I think some of you missunderstood when i said id like to take students up to marginal conditons...i meant exactly that..upto but not into.. i realise this wouldn't be a practical thing to plan for however..and scud running isn't something that at all interest's me at my stage of pilotness (new word)..

 

Its amazing the differnt responses ive gotten in this thread regarding wx, its such a huge part of our legalaties and safty margains and yet the reality line seems to be quite fuzzy..or at least difficult to describe..

 

cheers lads...thanx again

 

 

[Mazda]

When I did my GA PPL training I flew with a current IFR charter pilot. He was very clear about the rules. If the forecast was legally VFR, we flew. If it was not legally VFR, we didn't. This meant that we departed on days with storms around while others stayed on the ground. But we were always in legal VMC. Yes, we flew in rain, and yes, we diverted around real weather. He would not allow VFR flight if the weather deteriorated below legal VMC. It meant looking well ahead for weather and planning an early diversion. I thought that was great training as I did fly in some weather but it was always legal so I did see what that looked like.

 

If an instructor pushed on in anything less than VMC I don't think it would teach the student good airmanship.

 

I think though that perhaps some instructors only like flying in good weather (and who would blame them?) Maybe some lack the experience themselves and don't want to get the student into a difficult situation.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Further thoughts after my post last night:

 

By the time we have a pilot's certificate we have barely begun learning. What we have (hopefully) is the basics well drummed in. After that it is about graded learning within a clear set of rules.

 

I remember the first time I flew in dodgy weather after my pilot's certificate: I discussed the wx with my instructor, we looked at the TAFs and the wx radar and I decided to "go and have a look" with the CFI's agreement and a clear plan of action. I took off and climbed to cruising height which would give me good clearance over some high ground enroute.

 

As I approached the range I had to cross the overcast started to descend and soon I was close to the base with the cloud still coming down. Low ground behind me so a descending 180 and I was back home 20 minutes after I started.

 

This was the first part of a "graded exposure" to wx. Not challenging really except that for me it was a new extension of my personal minima. The CFI had confidence that I had a clear strategy and good basic training so he was comfortable for me to take the a/c and go.

 

Which brings me to the point that I think we all need a "learning partnership" right through our flying lives. There are always people from whom we can learn more. For me that means a personal commitment to do some dual every 6 weeks or so and to learn a new skill in that dual. The most recent was last Thursday - we revised shortfield takeoffs, then did some very gentle wingovers whilst focusing on staying well inside the operating envelope of the a/c and then came back for a brush up on 90 degree crosswinds. The wingovers were in accordance with the Ops Manual and the POH limitations. All in 0.6.

 

I don't see that ever stopping. Personal Wx limits are just part of that gradual extension of my learning.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[motzartmerv]

pelerous.. Thats a great idea, but i wonder how many others have such a regeim post licence.. i can only speak for my school and i really get the feeling once i got my ticket i was on my own.. having said that, im sure my cfi would do any duel i wanted to do, after all, its a buisness that rely's on bums in seats..part of the reason i decided to gofor my instructor end is i feel it will serve to make me a much better pilot down the track, as spending the first couple hundred hours of my flying career in the learning culture, with the level of currency and profficiency at greater levels, would serve as a great foundation of flying skills that will be with me forever..

 

The flight you spoke of is exactly the sort of thing im talking about.. with minnima firmly intrecnhed in a new pilot why not send them on flights like yours.. your instructor probably new very well that a descision would need to be made by you sooner or later, and his instict was right as you chose the 'sooner'..under close supervison like that much can be learned safely without risking breaking the minnama rules..

 

good job by you and your instructor...;)

 

 

[Yenn]

Dual can be a bit of a problem if you fly a single seater. I did my bi-annual last year in a Jabiru, so that I could have an instructor along for the ride. Usually it has been a case of go and do some steep turns, stalls and an engine out simulated landing.

 

Weather depends a lot on where you are. It is great here in winter, but on Sunday I did a bit of scud running. The cloud base was 800 to 1000' and it was good exercise to fly at 500', dodging the high ground and always knowing that to the NE was ocean and a low path back to base. That was about as low as I like to fly and I always like to have 200' between me and cloud. Reason being there is much better visibility and nothing is worse than not being able to see ahead because of a lump of low cloud hanging down.

 

Your minima may be lower than mine but I have no attitude instruments. To fly into cloud is to go out of control. I learnt that years ago doing iFR training.

 

 

[Ultralights]

after reading these posts, i feel rather privileged to be taught by the instructor i had, sadly he passed away a few yrs ago after a long and prosperous career as a military pilot and instructor for his entire career, one thing he did on a regular occasion, was ask my if i could make it to the airport on a given day if it looked like rain or a bit of a breeze, once there we would go through the flight in the usual briefing then turn to the weather, after obtaining the weather report via avfax or dectalk back then, we would see if we were legal and safe for vfr flight, and if we were, then off we would go, i remeber dooing numerous hours of circuits at bankstown in SVFR conditions, some as low as 500ft, in light and heavy rain, SVFR conditions and altitudes were determined by the tower, and we would be informed of deteriorating conditions and asked to make a full stop.

 

things we would study before the flights were dewpoints, to determine if the cloud-base would lower, or if rainfall would bring a lower cloud-base or fog, or things like an approaching trough or front would change conditions.

 

an approaching front would be his favorite time for a nav, as it would mean a change in wind direction midflight that would be difficult to predict, and therefor making navigation a little bit trickier, as all you pre take off planning goes out the window, and new wind speeds and drift headings had to be calculated without the aid of a report, just using the old dtried and true methods in track plotting and track made good plotting. there is no substitute for real world experience when in training.

 

though i did notice on a few occasions when flying out of Cessnock, that the activity of the airline factory flying school would cease when winds hit anything above 5kts or a cloud appeared in the sky.

 

nb, all my initial training was done in GA IFR equipped aircraft, namely piper Archers and Arrows.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ultralights..there ya go...now that sounds like a decent controlled exposure to weather and other yucky's... obviously ur instructor was highly comptent in wx ops and he managed to pass some of this knowlage onto you...exellent stuff...

 

i see your in nowra aswell.. when do you fly??..what are you flying?...do you know of any ultralight hire available in our area (besdies the skyfox at jaspers brush)

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Decca]

Hiya Motzart, sorry this has been a long time coming.

 

I was going to suggest an experienced IFR pilot going up with cameraman into marginal conditions, but it’s already on video for us all to see without taking any risk. In fact it’s the type of human factors film to watch when the weather’s too lousy for us to fly.

 

The video’s called “The 17 Most Popular Ways to Fall Out of the Skyâ€Â. Apparently it’s a series of 4 videos but for some reason our club has only one left, but it’s the one you’re after because it deals with en-route human factors events, including scud hopping, and VFR into IMC, graphically presented & realistically frightening enough to send the message home about making the right decision (about anything, marginal weather included). Introduction by Bob Hoover himself, & the usual movie hype on the packaging “Because the best mistakes to learn from are somebody else’s†& “The flight review you can’t help but rememberâ€Â. Some of us just have very short memories.

 

Another good training aid is the (Aust Gov) Australian Transport Safety Bureau - Aviation Research Investigation - B2005/0127 “General aviation pilot behaviors in the face of adverse weatherâ€Â. Hope I haven’t bored you already, & forget about the GA bit in the title - it applies equally to RAAus.

 

It’s a bit like a crash comic but confines the incidents/accidents & fatalities & a/c damage etc to the very topic of your thread & explains in easy to understand English the Human Factors rationale in different pilots making different decisions in the same circumstance.

 

That’s enough for a reaction for now but I can expand on any of the above if you need it. Don’t know where you get a copy of the vid or the ATSB investigation; anyone?

 

Regards, Decca

 

 

[motzartmerv]

thanx decca, id be very interested in that vid...perhaps if no-one can tell us where to get it i could send you a blank tape and get a copy of it....ummm.... hope its alright to say that on here( shiffty eyes)..anyway thanx again, sounds very interesting...;)

 

 

[Guest Decca]

I'll see what I can do. I hope it's just the tracking on the club's old VCR that causes the bad picture.

 

Decca

 

 

[motzartmerv]

cheers decca...ur a gentlmen and a scholar;)

 

 

[slartibartfast]

ummm.... hope its alright to say that on here( shiffty eyes)

That would be a copyright violation MM, unless it was purely for off-site backup.

You can get it legally here or here for a start. I wouldn't mind getting it either.

 

Maybe Ian can source it and stock it for us.

 

Thanks for the heads-up Decca. Hope you're feeling on top.

 

Ross

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok...yep, i thought as much...but was only if we couldn't find it anywhere else...thanx for the links starti...decca, do ya know which volume it is with the weather, probably the second one hey, the cruise volume??...cheers...

 

 

[Guest Decca]

O.K. that's a better plan. (Thanks Ross, BTW every day is an improvement). Motzart it's the "enroute" copy, not sure if it's 2nd or 3rd, but any club shud have the series of 4 (incl mine), maybe they are borrowed permanently & disappear eventually. Should I email Ian with that request?

 

Regards, Decca.

 

 

[Guest Decca]

Sorry MM, definitely Vol2 after looking at Ross's links. The DVD option looks the best from "MyPilotShop", Don't know if they can be bought separately though.

 

Decca.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

cheers decca...im onto it...hehe...ill retop up the credit card( grrrllll xmasss) and get a copy..

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Decca]

My post #39 above refers to an ATSB research report, “Pilot Behaviours in the Face of Adverse Weather” which I’ve discovered is freely available as a download from the ATSB website www.atsb.gov.au . Once on the home page place cursor on AVIATION SAFETY then click on AVIATION RESEARCH PUBLICATIONS & use the page arrows to find 2005, & the title. Worth a read if only to help you assess the risks of going VFR into IMC, or carrying out a weather related precautionary landing.

 

Regards, Decca.