RAA time to be counted for a PPL?

[sixtiesrelic]

A cousin of mine wants to try his hand at commercial flying. He's in his thirties, but at this time of pilot shortages I think he has a chance of snagging a reasonable job.

 

At present he's learning at Bankstown and I think he should combine RAA with Spam can flying to get the private and possibly commercial license.

 

I've heard figures (hours) quoted but didn't bother saving them in my memory.... it's full enough of good stuff, so I'm particular about what I struggle to remember these days.

 

Can someone give me the true facts so I can pass them onto him.

 

The landing fees alone at BK shock me and I reckon he'd be getting many more hours for his buck and a better handle on flying in an ultra light which needs to be flown more than "travelling about" in the usual stable trainer.

 

At this stage I'd say he's full of the discriminationary bull that "highly inexperienced" grade 3 or C (whatever they are called now) instructors have learned to say from the book.

 

(I learned to fly in Tiger Moths, oozed around PNG for four years in DC-3s and have a fair bit of time plugging in autopilots and monitoring systems in sixty tons of jet powered, aluminium pipe.

 

The best airborne fun I've had is, sitting in the plastic seat of a Skycraft Scout in the mid seventies when they were the only "Minimum aircraft flying. Learned to think theory of flight in them as you tried not to fall down).

 

 

[motzartmerv]

G'day, and welcome to the forum...Heres the skinny... There are 2 cpl courses..a 150 hr and a 200 hour.. ultralight hours can't be counted for the 150 hour course but can be counted for the 200 hr course.. but, the 150 hr course is gst free...so 10% saving on hrs.. i'm not sure , you'd have to do the maths and find out which way is best to go for your brother was it?.. Ultralight hours are obviously a hell of a lot cheaper but you need to do more of them see.. some schools i could recomend are daves flying school at the oaks, no gst or landing fee's there and they hire jabiru's for around 100 per hour (solo)... and gostner aviation at camden..gostner would be a good choice because they do ppl and cpl courses as well as the recreational licence...they have 2 jabirus with airline glass cockpits for training up would be commercial pilots and also have a twin engine partnavia and a piper seneca..If your bro has already got a substantle amount of hours up towards his ppl in a ga registerd plane then it may make more financial snece to go the short course..im heading towards my cpl with gosstner, but i had already done 40 odd hours in ultralights so im going the 200 hr way....

 

hope this has helped and good luck to ur bro

 

cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Also, the 150 hr course is a structured tyope of thing, whereas the 200 hr one isnt really a course...its just ya need 200 hrs up before ya can sit the test..and can count glider hours aswell (i think)...Its a good way to go if ya wanna just cruise around and do ya own sorta thing for the 200 hrs...

 

and yes, some GA members and instructors will try to talk him out of doing the rec licence, i think most have come around but there are still a few knockers..there are heaps of factory built superb ultralight trainers out there now, and conversion times from say a jabiru to a cessna 150 or the like are around 2 hours, where as conversion times from a 150 to a jabiru is normally over 5 hours, so whats that tell ya;)..you won't find many better stick and rudder pilots then in the RAA...my 2 cents anyway

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day,

 

This subject has been re-hashed here a number of times and re-hashed on Pprune a number of times. Each time there is a variation in the answers given. Each time someone rings CASA there is a variation in answers given.

 

I think the best way to answer this question is to go to a school that offers initial license issue up to CPL and offers RAAus training and ask them exactly what the situation is.

 

I did that a number of months ago and I seem to recall that whether the 150 hour course credits RAAus hours depends on the Ops Manual (approved by CASA) of the AOC holder.

 

If your cousin wants a starting point he could ring Mat Ford the CFI at Air Shapparton (03) 5823 5411 (Not Sunday or Monday). Mat will give him a coherent answer to the hours question. Whether he wants then to go to Shepparton is of course entirely another question but he will have a starting point. He might also be surprised by how much he saves per hour/per landing just by going to the country to train.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest airsick]

As mentioned above the answer will no doubt change from school to school and depending on which CASA official you speak to. Having said that I just looked in the Day VFR syllabus and this is what it says.

 

For the 150 hour course these are the experience requirements (page 1-6):

 

- 150 hours total flight time flown during the approved training course which includes;

 

- 70 hours flight time as PIC;

 

- 20 hours cross country flight time as PIC;

 

- 10 hours IF;

 

- Pass the CPLA written examination set by CASA;

 

- hold or be qualified to hold a Flight Radio Telephone Operator Certificate (FROL);

 

- been assessed as having achieved the required standard in all sequences listed in Section 2 for the CPLA phase; and

 

- be recommended by the Chief Flying Instructor for the CPLA flight test.

 

Furthermore section 2.8.8 (page 1-6) states:

 

Only hours accumulated while undergoing supervised training with a school whose curriculum includes an approved CPLA Training Course may be credited towards the 150-hour aeronautical experience requirement for licence issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the 200 hour (page 1-7):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- 200 hours total flight time;

 

 

 

- 100 hours flight time as PIC;

 

 

 

- 100 hours flight time in a registered or recognised aeroplane;

 

 

 

- 20 hours cross country flight time as PIC in a registered or recognised aeroplane;

 

 

 

- 10 hours IF in a registered or recognised aeroplane;

 

 

 

- pass the CPLA written examination set by CASA;

 

 

 

- hold or be qualified to hold a Flight Radio Telephone Operator Certificate (FROL);

 

 

 

- been assessed as having achieved the required standard in all sequences listed in Section 2 for the CPLA phase; and

 

 

 

- be recommended by the Chief Flying Instructor for the CPLA flight test.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So it seems to me that if you do the 150 hour option then the entire 150 has to be flown as part of the course. In the 200 hour option you can fly whatever you want. I guess the question of, "What is a recognised aeroplane?" still needs to be answered though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The full syllabus can be found at

 

 

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/download/vfra_sfull.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

from CAR 1988. A recognised aeroplane means an aeroplane :

 

that is on the register of aircraft kept by a contracting State or

 

that is operated by the Defence Force of Australia or of a contracting state.

 

So this would seem to exclude RRA aircraft but the definition of "recognised flight time" does include Group A ultralights !

 

John

 

 

[Guest airsick]

So the RA-Aus register is not considered as being kept by a Contracting State? The wording is a bit ambiguous too. If an ultralight is registered with RA-Aus then is it classed as a registered (although not recognised) aeroplane?

 

Even if it isn't it still means you can do up to 100 hours in an ultralight and 100 in GA.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

So the RA-Aus register is not considered as being kept by a Contracting State?

I don't believe it is as its kept by RAA not the State ie Govt

 

If an ultralight is registered with RA-Aus then is it classed as a registered (although not recognised) aeroplane?

No I don't think it is

 

 

[Guest brentc]

It all counts!

 

There is currently a school in Melbourne running entire CPL courses in an RA-Aus registered aircraft, then switching to a GA aircraft for the CSU endorsement, plus you need 120 knots TAS for the CPL flight test anyway.

 

The trouble with checking with schools and CFI's is that they all have different interpretations of the regulations. I would shoot off an email to CASA, get a reply then take that to the school you intend to learn with. Make sure you keep the correspondence though.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yea...it all counts, for the 200 course...not the 150..pretty sure of that, unless its changed recently

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Maybe its possible because ultralights are "considered to be Australian aircraft" http://www.casa.gov.au/manuals/regulate/acrprocs/039r002.pdf section 2.3.2

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

My! haven't they complicated matters.

 

PPL in 1960 was a minimum of forty hours. Part of that was a three hour , dual cross country and a three hour solo cross country.

 

You got examined on your flying ability in the training area and circuit. Mine was an hour and you were free to go off with passengers and get lost a bit.

 

Commercial; was minimum of one hundred and sixty five hours, amongst that were five cross countries.

 

No retractable U/C and C/S aeroplanes required.

 

No VTCs, no electronic gizmos, just a WAC chart pencil, ruler and steam driven computer.

 

I'll digest this info you've given me... yeah I could have waded through pprune etc but it was simpler to do what I did and you guys came to the fore to help.

 

Thanks.

 

Sixties

 

 

[Flyer]

Hi Sixties

 

I noticed that you didn't get abused in this forum for asking a question either

 

I really havent worked out what to make of pprune yet...

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

Ihat's why I don't bother with them or most others ...

 

Sixties

 

 

[ahlocks]

Hi SixtiesI noticed that you didn't get abused in this forum for asking a question either

I really havent worked out what to make of pprune yet...

 

Regards

 

Phil

It seems to be full of grumpy, self interested people with large chips on their shoulders. A lot of "I had to do it the hard way so you should too" type messages.

 

The 'more photos' thread is a great read though.

 

 

[poteroo]

Yes, pprune isn't all that oriented toward the GA private and rec flying end of the industry. Both the Oz forums contain all manner of airline threads - doesn't seem to be moderated vigorously enough to define the professional from the private . There have been some good technical threads in the instructors and the private sections - but are mostly UK oriented. For ultralight/LSA subjects, this forum is by far the best value.

 

happy days,