New Federal Cabinet

[Old Koreelah]

...He has got criticism for " attacking vulnerable peoples' self esteem " ...

I reckon my self esteem would be improved if I was doing something useful in exchange for "sit down money".

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have emailed my (labor, Nick Champion ) local member twice. The first was to congratulate him on doing some control on where welfare money was spent. They are doing a test in the area about giving only half of the welfare as cash with the rest being earmarked for necessities and he was one of the prime movers of the test. Participation is voluntary.He has got criticism for " attacking vulnerable peoples' self esteem " . Personally, I thought it was too weak to do much good but it was a start. ( I didn't say this in the email ).

Why don't you make an appointment to visit his electoral office and talk to him when he is available?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

" Welfare plans an assault on our freedoms" begins an ABC report. " The vast majority spend it wisely " . " No reduction of spending on drugs" (as if giving them half in cash had not happened.)

 

I say to use the card system for all their money for the bad cases and not at all for the responsible ones.

 

If I was a drug seller, I would be using all my resources to fight against this idea. Well those drug guys sure have more clout than some grumpy old guys.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Why don't you make an appointment to visit his electoral office and talk to him when he is available?

Never mind what the ABC says Bruce, Nick Champion will be talking to like minded politicians in Canberra, regardless of their Party, which comes as a surprise to most commentators who think the Prime Minister of the day is the only one working. So although he may be Labor, and the Chair of any Senate Committee will be a Coalition Member, they are usually Bipartisan.

Any information you can provide (other than I want to fly over the Mount Lofty ranges) will be going into the mix of those discussions.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Turbs, you believe in the system more than some of us. I think most of our fellow voters are apathetic and they tend to vote for the biggest advertising party.

 

So the parties are not able to cross big money interests , especially if they are donors (or potential donors for the other lot), and that is why we don't actually have a democracy.

 

The sugar tax is a good example of how it works. It would be great if more bi-partisanship were there. That is the only hope for some sensible things, but parliament is showing few signs of this. Maybe aviation could provide an example with reform on unused controlled airspace... fat chance.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs, you believe in the system more than some of us. I think most of our fellow voters are apathetic and they tend to vote for the biggest advertising party.

Voters sh!t me to tears; I've looked at election results, and seen the Booth figures, and when things are rumbling along like they have been for the last few years, I cant believe that booth figures often don't vary more than ten or so votes from the previous election, and for that matter previous State election. They should be sending messages all the time. However, when they do realise something is wrong they let go with a massive swing, such as when Whitlam tried to govern without Supply.

 

So the parties are not able to cross big money interests , especially if they are donors (or potential donors for the other lot), and that is why we don't actually have a democracy.

If you are a Candidate and you say "What's my budget", and the Party says "Nothing; you have to raise the funds", then you have to go out and get some serious money in a few weeks, so you may be tempted to do a few favours, but you won't be around for long. The big money usually hedges its bets and gives a share to each party.

 

The sugar tax is a good example of how it works. It would be great if more bi-partisanship were there.

Don't know what you are referring to.

 

Maybe aviation could provide an example with reform on unused controlled airspace... fat chance.

Told you not to talk about that.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Bruce, if you want something done, donate $150,000 to the Liberal Party. Then Dutton will pick up the phone and do whatever you ask.

 

 

[Methusala]

Thing that pee's me off is when a poster makes an outrageous statement that would do Ray Hadley proud without any attempt to source the "information". Who can give any credence to a claim that some of Melbourne's homeless earn "$1,000 per day." Please respect the members of this forum by not trolling like a tabloid journalist or a shock jock.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thing that pee's me off is when a poster makes an outrageous statement that would do Ray Hadley proud without any attempt to source the "information". Who can give any credence to a claim that some of Melbourne's homeless earn "$1,000 per day." Please respect the members of this forum by not trolling like a tabloid journalist or a shock jock.

Do you know how many people pass that location to Flinders Street Station every day?

 

 

[red750]

Only takes 500 passers by to drop $2 in the hat, and some of these street beggars get irate if you don't drop a note. They will chase you down the street. I know people who have had it happen. Fortunately I have no need to go to the city. I haven't been to Flinders Street for more than 5 years.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Sounds like that might be the most sought-after bit of real estate in Melbourne. Do they have turf wars?

 

Does the ATO take a cut?

 

 

[tillmanr]

I walked through the Melbourne CBD including Flinders Street this week and encountered only a few people begging. None of them were aggressive and they certainly were not reaping a golden harvest.

 

 

[Methusala]

This story reminds me of a Sherlock Holmes story. Beggar was in fact a well to do gent who discovered that begging was actually quite lucrative. He acted in mufti and most definitely did not sleep on site! We need to be careful not to confuse flights of fancy with lived experience. For 40 years I plied my honest trade and those $1,000 days were very rare indeed.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hate the sight and idea of begging... isn't this why we have the big welfare system in place? To spare the likes of us from the dreadful sight ?

 

Personally, while I would argue and vote for a fair welfare system, with cabins for the homeless, I don't give to beggars. While not hearing of a rich one, I did hear of one who asked for money to buy food, and who was angry at being given some quite good food, because he really wanted money.

 

Why aren't beggars approached by welfare officials ( or volunteers ) and helped, or prosecuted if they are rich frauds?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sounds like that might be the most sought-after bit of real estate in Melbourne. Do they have turf wars?Does the ATO take a cut?

There were about 20 of them, well dressed, bottled water and orange juice, McDonalds etc. They were selling the homeless story to anyone who would listen. I walked past them quite a few times. Finally, in Jan/Feb 2017 Melbourne City Council got the police to clear the area and they just went back to their studies etc, and the streets went back to normal.

 

 

[Downunder]

I hate the sight and idea of begging... isn't this why we have the big welfare system in place? To spare the likes of us from the dreadful sight ?Personally, while I would argue and vote for a fair welfare system, with cabins for the homeless, I don't give to beggars. While not hearing of a rich one, I did hear of one who asked for money to buy food, and who was angry at being given some quite good food, because he really wanted money.

Why aren't beggars approached by welfare officials ( or volunteers ) and helped, or prosecuted if they are rich frauds?

They don't want food Bruce. They want money for drugs and alcohol.....

 

 

[turboplanner]

I hate the sight and idea of begging... isn't this why we have the big welfare system in place? To spare the likes of us from the dreadful sight ?

Beggars income

A 2013 South African study found that beggars could make the equivalent of $18 per day begging in South Africa. A 2008 report stated that some Oregon beggars outside a Wal Mart make $100k per year / $300 per day. A beggar in Oklahoma City, OK makes $60k per year, or $30 per hour average.

 

Not all the homeless are homeless.

 

Personally, while I would argue and vote for a fair welfare system, with cabins for the homeless, I don't give to beggars. While not hearing of a rich one, I did hear of one who asked for money to buy food, and who was angry at being given some quite good food, because he really wanted money.

Melbourne has facilities which give the homeless free meals, free showers, free clothes and free overnight accommodation, and the last time I checked, the system was nowhere near capacity.

However in terms of sociology, this is way more complex than a simple forum can cover, because some would like to get into long term housing, and there are people who address that, some have found themselves out on the streets due the policy of getting them out of mental institutions and "into the community", some have had traumatic experiences, and actually prefer to become invisible to the daily crowd and sleep rough - and don't make use of the free beds, showers and overnight accommodation; there are groups of people who seek out and look after these people, as much as they are allowed. I've been working on one who suffered PTSD after a workplace accident and solved it with alcohol (which is a depressant) and became suicidal. After a year's work, he's done his first full week's work, having spent all his unemployment benefits on alcohol, then all his new income on alcohol. The government appointed psychologists will not share any information with the detox facilities and he's way beyond being able to pay for detox, so he's out there in the ether where if he lowers his alcohol consumption, he blacks out and has done so on several occasions, being seriously injured. He couldn't be simply picked up by car and put in a "cabin" or whatever the new thought bubble for accommodation might be, however he would be a very good candidate for your idea of a restricted credit card. This idea is already being used in some aboriginal communities and appears to be successful.

 

Why aren't beggars approached by welfare officials ( or volunteers ) and helped, or prosecuted if they are rich frauds?

The beggars I was talking about earlier fought the City Council for months to stay in their lucrative position, and perhaps others who may be earning less, get a sense of pride from earning their own way each day. It's very difficult to catch someone making a cash income if they keep it low.

These were some of the reasons I mentioned you wouldn't get much of a hearing, and because qualified Sociologists, and other professional people are working on solving these problems as a career.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

So you didn’t see this bloke:

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

So you didn’t see this bloke:[ATTACH=full]61691[/ATTACH]

No but I saw his cousins in San Francisco, having been approached by a "poor couple" in the City. They both had poured something like petrol into their eyes to simulate crying. On a cold day he was wearing a pair of leather pants and bare top and she was in one of those hanging cotton dresses that screamed poverty. We had been warned about getting sucked in by panhandlers, so sat back and watched them picking up notes from good samaritans. After a while we caught a tram down to the Bay. On the way down a near-new Buick flashed by and in the driver's seat was the guy in the leather pants. By the time we got down to the last tram stop, there they were, two tragic figures waiting to greet the tram full of tourists.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I wonder how anyone could be so damned manipulative of peoples' better nature... But then I've seen it in quite a few highly successful execs.

 

 

[Methusala]

So, what's the point of the forgoing? We need good, 1st world accommodation available to all citizens who need it. Con artists abound at all levels of society. Reference in particular, lying politicians such as LNP. Arguing that some take advantage does not negate the case for all to have access to essential needs. This in an affluent society is inexcusable.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Even more thread drift... Should the homeless expect someone else to house them?

 

Habitat for Humanity is a global movement helping people build their own homes. I've helped build a couple in my district. They need not be McMansions; the small house movement is one reaction to the ridiculous McMansions trend.

 

It's time Australia got over our love affair with detached houses; the blocks are getting so small that there's no backyard for kids. We could learn from other cultures and build medium-density blocks with shared facilities, so several generations can live nearby. And while I'm having a rant, why should old folks homes have to hire a bus so the elderly can have a rare trip to see a few little kiddies, while those same kids' parents are struggling to afford daycare? What a clever country...

 

 

[gareth lacey]

this thread should go to the other site

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

this thread should go to the other site

Too plurry right, Gareth.

From other site: New Fed Cabinet/the homeless...

 

 

[Methusala]

I think that the media, enthusiastically assisted by others who are captivated by their own privileged position of power and money, make up a lot of these stories. The constant meme regarding 3d printing of guns seems to me to be overblown hyperbole. Truth is that a plastic gun would be as useful as one fabbed out of wood. The simple fact is that guns don't work without ammo. Try 3d printing a nato round! (Sales of ammunition are at least as tightly controlled in the world that I inhabit as the guns needed to project them) All that is needed to make an operational rifle is a lathe, milling machine, some metal and a capable machinist. Hardly exotic.