Why no Radio Calls?

[derekliston]

Really not sure where best to post this, but I am getting totally pissed off with aircraft going non radio. Warwick this morning I was taxiing for runway 27. A warrior had just called departing the circuit and I called “entering and lining up runway 27” when I spotted a PC12 on mid downwind. Now, I know that I had time to enter and roll before he landed, but with nil radio calls from him and a massive difference in performance and no idea of his intentions, I called “traffic downwind at Warwick, I will hold and line up behind you” then I received from him, “have you sighted” which confirms his radio was working and on the correct frequency. Now, a PC12 is not a basic puddle jumper and one would assume a fair degree of qualification and professionalism from someone piloting one, so why no radio calls???? See and avoid is essential!!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Really not sure where best to post this, but I am getting totally pissed off with aircraft going non radio. Warwick this morning I was taxiing for runway 27. A warrior had just called departing the circuit and I called “entering and lining up runway 27” when I spotted a PC12 on mid downwind. Now, I know that I had time to enter and roll before he landed, but with nil radio calls from him and a massive difference in performance and no idea of his intentions, I called “traffic downwind at Warwick, I will hold and line up behind you” then I received from him, “have you sighted” which confirms his radio was working and on the correct frequency. Now, a PC12 is not a basic puddle jumper and one would assume a fair degree of qualification and professionalism from someone piloting one, so why no radio calls???? See and avoid is essential!!

He probably had you sighted, realised you had enough space to take off and was practising the see and avoid policy.

Prior to that policy coming in he probably would have done what you expected to remove any doubt.

 

That's putting a good light on it, and also assuming someone who is flying a turboprop aircraft exercised judgement.

 

He probably knew that if you entered the runway and started your take off roll he could just his the gas and out climb you anyway.

 

He also could have been texting for a taxi.

 

 

[poteroo]

Really not sure where best to post this, but I am getting totally pissed off with aircraft going non radio. Warwick this morning I was taxiing for runway 27. A warrior had just called departing the circuit and I called “entering and lining up runway 27” when I spotted a PC12 on mid downwind. Now, I know that I had time to enter and roll before he landed, but with nil radio calls from him and a massive difference in performance and no idea of his intentions, I called “traffic downwind at Warwick, I will hold and line up behind you” then I received from him, “have you sighted” which confirms his radio was working and on the correct frequency. Now, a PC12 is not a basic puddle jumper and one would assume a fair degree of qualification and professionalism from someone piloting one, so why no radio calls???? See and avoid is essential!!

Why bother with the 'lining up' call? Its quite superfluous. You should be 'entering and rolling 27' - with no delays. In fairness to the PC12, he may well have made his ' joining' call on the upwind or crosswind leg, and so had you in clear sight for minutes before you began your take-off roll. Most commercial GA aircraft are happier to allow the smaller aircraft to get flying and out of the circuit: it leaves them in some uncertainty when the aircraft on the holding point procrastinates. I don't think you have a valid case. Just sayin'

 

 

[derekliston]

He probably had you sighted, realised you had enough space to take off and was practising the see and avoid policy.Prior to that policy coming in he probably would have done what you expected to remove any doubt.

That's putting a good light on it, and also assuming someone who is flying a turboprop aircraft exercised judgement.

 

He probably knew that if you entered the runway and started your take off roll he could just his the gas and out climb you anyway.

 

He also could have been texting for a taxi.

Knowing that the down and forward visibility is not the best from those things and that it wouldn’t be the first time a low wing has landed on top of a high wing, I prefer not to assume and let discretion, as they say, be the better part of valour!

 

 

[derekliston]

Why bother with the 'lining up' call? Its quite superfluous. You should be 'entering and rolling 27' - with no delays. In fairness to the PC12, he may well have made his ' joining' call on the upwind or crosswind leg, and so had you in clear sight for minutes before you began your take-off roll. Most commercial GA aircraft are happier to allow the smaller aircraft to get flying and out of the circuit: it leaves them in some uncertainty when the aircraft on the holding point procrastinates. I don't think you have a valid case. Just sayin'

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but given that I was listening out whilst doing my engine warm up and checks and heard the warrior departing after having done a circuit with all the proper calls, I think I can fairly safely say he made no radio calls. Just sayin!!

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

The PC12 should have given a inbound call at least. While you were warming up and taxiing this takes 10 mins or more surely a PC12 can go 10nm in 10 mins !!!!..Its either feast or famine at YCAB...either way too many calls which is usual...or bloody none !!. You just got to keep your eyes out of your bum and peeled all the time

 

 

[derekliston]

The PC12 should have given a inbound call at least. While you were warming up and taxiing this takes 10 mins or more surely a PC12 can go 10nm in 10 mins !!!!..Its either feast or famine at YCAB...either way too many calls which is usual...or bloody none !!. You just got to keep your eyes out of your bum and peeled all the time

Yes Mark, I don’t believe in excessive calls, entering and lining up, turning downwind and turning base. Arriving from elsewhere, 10 miles inbound (at 60kts that’s plenty!) Joining crosswind or whatever and then again, downwind and base. Even the glider tugs which are up and down all day at weekends give a downwind and base call. I just don’t see what is hard about it. I want people to know where I am and what I am doing. If you have two people of like mind who don’t believe in radio calls, that is a recipe for potential disaster!

 

 

[BirdDog]

Come on guys.... seriously!!! Are pilots that fat and lazy they could not be bothered to make a simple radio call!!! FFS!!!

 

There really is only 2 reasons... lazy or arrogant or worse still. Both.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Avoiding AVDATA billing?????

 

Have seen plenty of that!

 

 

[derekliston]

Come on guys.... seriously!!! Are pilots that fat and lazy they could not be bothered to make a simple radio call!!! FFS!!!There really is only 2 reasons... lazy or arrogant or worse still. Both.

Mate, if you spend a bit of time at Warwick you would find the no radio call syndrome quite widespread. If I am on the airfield, working on the aeroplane or whatever, I have an airband receiver tuned to Warwick’s frequency and sometimes wonder if it is actually working and then someone will actually give a call which reassures me that it is! I don’t know if they are trying to avoid landing fees or if they are just more confident than I am of their ability to see anything around. In almost 50 yrs of flying I know how hard it can be to spot another plane for a multitude of reasons.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Knowing that the down and forward visibility is not the best from those things and that it wouldn’t be the first time a low wing has landed on top of a high wing, I prefer not to assume and let discretion, as they say, be the better part of valour!

Well I'm with you really, radio calls have been prostituted by people posting their own agendas (what we do at YXXX) so that no one is too sure what to do.

In the 1950s and 60s the old ex WW2 guys would have taken him round the back of the hangar and smacked him in the teeth - they really knew how much safer it was with correct radio use.

 

 

[Kenlsa]

See and avoid, you saw and both of you avoided. No problems encountered . Ken

 

 

[derekliston]

See and avoid, you saw and both of you avoided. No problems encountered . Ken

That really misses the point Ken!

 

 

[kaz3g]

The obligation to use radio is in CAR 166C(2)...

 

(2) The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:

 

(a) the name of the aerodrome;

 

(b) the aircraft's type and call sign;

 

© the position of the aircraft and the pilot's intentions.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Downunder]

The obligation to use radio is in CAR 166C(2)...(2) The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft:

 

(a) the name of the aerodrome;

 

(b) the aircraft's type and call sign;

 

© the position of the aircraft and the pilot's intenti

 

Kaz

The main problem with that is when you don't know the aircraft is there, you don't know there is potential for collision, so you don't make a radio call.

 

The regulation is somewhat of an oxymoron. .....

 

 

[Downunder]

Really not sure where best to post this, but I am getting totally pissed off with aircraft going non radio. Warwick this morning I was taxiing for runway 27. A warrior had just called departing the circuit and I called “entering and lining up runway 27” when I spotted a PC12 on mid downwind. Now, I know that I had time to enter and roll before he landed, but with nil radio calls from him and a massive difference in performance and no idea of his intentions, I called “traffic downwind at Warwick, I will hold and line up behind you” then I received from him, “have you sighted” which confirms his radio was working and on the correct frequency. Now, a PC12 is not a basic puddle jumper and one would assume a fair degree of qualification and professionalism from someone piloting one, so why no radio calls???? See and avoid is essential!!

If I'm not going to conflict with an aircraft that has made a radio call and there is good separation and not within visual range, I often do not reply. That being said, I will always make contact with any visual traffic or atleast make my turning calls in circuit.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The main problem with that is when you don't know the aircraft is there, you don't know there is potential for collision, so you don't make a radio call.The regulation is somewhat of an oxymoron. .....

Good point DU; I’d say it’s a moron. There’s also a lot more buried on the CASA site somewhere, such as what to actually say and where and when.

 

 

[nomadpete]

"If I'm not going to conflict with an aircraft that has made a radio call...

 

, I often do not reply"

 

So, you are relying on other aircraft making excessive radio calls, otherwise you don't know they are in your area of potential conflict?

 

 

[alf jessup]

Because some pilots are too professional for that.

 

 

[djpacro]

Really not sure where best to post this!!

ATSB

[Roundsounds]

The main problem with that is when you don't know the aircraft is there, you don't know there is potential for collision, so you don't make a radio call.The regulation is somewhat of an oxymoron. .....

Which is precisely why CAAP 166 was produced. Based on many years of experience and collective wisdom a number of recommended calls are specified. Unless there is a real risk of a collision no additional calls are required. People who routinely make calls just in case and use the “I was avoiding a collision” card are ignorant and reducing safety.

Derek, the PC12 heard your call, saw there was no conflict therefore said nothing - which is the recommended procedure. You spotted the PC12 and said there was ample room to depart, but chose to hold. Your choice, but to say this guy was going no radio is not correct. You’ve become used to people not using published procedures and expect professional aviators to use the same unprofessional / unpublished procedures. Not sure why you’d be pissed off with someone doing the right thing?

 

 

[derekliston]

Which is precisely why CAAP 166 was produced. Based on many years of experience and collective wisdom a number of recommended calls are specified. Unless there is a real risk of a collision no additional calls are required. People who routinely make calls just in case and use the “I was avoiding a collision” card are ignorant and reducing safety.Derek, the PC12 heard your call, saw there was no conflict therefore said nothing - which is the recommended procedure. You spotted the PC12 and said there was ample room to depart, but chose to hold. Your choice, but to say this guy was going no radio is not correct. You’ve become used to people not using published procedures and expect professional aviators to use the same unprofessional / unpublished procedures. Not sure why you’d be pissed off with someone doing the right thing?

Not sure what book you use which says “ No radio calls required at all unless you want to’

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I make calls in circuit even when I think I am the only aircraft for 100km. Sometimes the response surprises me.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I make calls in circuit even when I think I am the only aircraft for 100km. Sometimes the response surprises me.

You've probably captured the key safety benefit in a nutshell.

You don't see what you don't see.

 

I was making circuit calls at the deserted Mangalore airfield many years ago, no one in my sight, then a Fokker Friendship with an IMC trainee called behind me and he was faster than I was!

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Not sure what book you use which says “ No radio calls required at all unless you want to’

That’s not what I said, read my post again.