Why no Radio Calls?

[Roundsounds]

I make calls in circuit even when I think I am the only aircraft for 100km. Sometimes the response surprises me.

I know it’s dificult for recreational pilots to navigate the GA regulatory system, hence the reason for making up your own procedures. The safe operation of aircraft in busy airspace relies on every pilot using published standard operating procedures.

Here’s a link to the guidance document known as a Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP). You’ll note this is numbered 166, this isn’t a random number, it is the CAR the CAAP is addressing.

 

Your self designed procedures might be ok at quiet aerodromes, but they reduce safety at busy ones.

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/182536/download?token=ev1DY9ng

 

 

[kaz3g]

Good point DU; I’d say it’s a moron. There’s also a lot more buried on the CASA site somewhere, such as what to actually say and where and when.

Good point DU; I’d say it’s a moron. There’s also a lot more buried on the CASA site somewhere, such as what to actually say and where and when.

The CAAP sets out all the recommended calls, etc.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Not sure what book you use which says “ No radio calls required at all unless you want to’

You too might find it worth reading CAAP 166-1, here a link. It certainly doesn’t say the more broadcasts you make the safer you’ll be.

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/182536/download?token=ev1DY9ng

 

 

[biggles]

CAAP 166-2(1) for further reading on this matter ..... Bob

 

 

[kgwilson]

This subject was done to death on an earlier thread. Can't remember which one. CAAP 166 states recommended calls, none are mandatory, however if you hear nothing and don't make any calls you could be in for a surprise. If I hear nothing my first call will be entering/rolling or entering backtracking, then rolling. Inbound I give a 10 mile call with ETA, overhead & joining & nothing more unless I hear/see other traffic.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

This subject was done to death on an earlier thread. Can't remember which one. CAAP 166 states recommended calls, none are mandatory, however if you hear nothing and don't make any calls you could be in for a surprise. If I hear nothing my first call will be entering/rolling or entering backtracking, then rolling. Inbound I give a 10 mile call with ETA, overhead & joining & nothing more unless I hear/see other traffic.

You are all missing the point of CAAPs. I hear people saying they are merely recommendations, yep they are. But they are also CASAs recommendations as to how to satisfy a regulation, in this case CAR 166. Try defending yourself in court if there’s an incident and you have decided you have a better method of satisfying Reg166. That includes an incident as the result of a person not being able to transmit a broadcast because another aircraft is telling the world of their movements minute by minute or a recommended broadcast was overtransmitted by a pilot with verbal diarrhea.

 

 

[sandman]

"Pos Comms" are always a peace of mind, I fly a drifter and if I'm within 10 miles of an aerodrome with another aircraft/s inbound I still give a position broadcast with intentions, even though I'm slow I still want other a/c to know who and where I am.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

"Pos Comms" are always a peace of mind, I fly a drifter and if I'm within 10 miles of an aerodrome with another aircraft/s inbound I still give a position broadcast with intentions, even though I'm slow I still want other a/c to know who and where I am.

“Pos Comms” is not a term I am familiar with?

So, you’re to the south inbound to an aerodrome, a faster aircraft calls he’s to the north inbound with an estimate overhead 5 mins before yours, do you still give a position broadcast? If so why?

 

 

[ISA]

It's always an interesting subject the etiquette of radio calls. Pilots have been talking about it since the Wrong Bros ever left the ground! The CAAP is a good guide and the biggest single ticket item contained within is in the definitions section, Airmanship, something that is sadly lacking a lot of the time! I have flown A/c from small SE (the most fun) to high perf turbo prop to high perf jets inc heavy metal and I've experienced some shocking R/T calls or lack there of from ALL levels of pilots in a CTAF!

 

 

[kgwilson]

This very subject came up at a CASA meeting at our Aero Club. A CASA rep asked the question "What are the mandatory calls in the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome". A couple answered joining & downwind etc & of course the correct answer is none. The rep went on to say "if there is no-one else around why bother making calls? I agree, what is the point after you have made your initial announcement with intentions? You need to keep your eyes open & constantly scanning. There may be someone there whose radio isn't working. This happened to me a few weeks ago when I was on base & found a C172 on final below me. 126.7 is far too busy for idle chit chat.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Well, I have seen it first at my local field where two planes above the airfield didn't hear another call, so they didn't bother calling, it ended up WAY To close for comfort. We can all hide behind words on a page, but my humble opinion - a radio call is better than no radio call in any situation. But that's just me!

 

 

[robinsm]

Its all abouit being heard and seen. I always give circuit calls even at uncontrolled/ empty country airfeilds. After 2 or 3 close calls with aircraft not giving calls, I always do. Better alive and silly than dead and right.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You are all missing the point of CAAPs. I hear people saying they are merely recommendations, yep they are. But they are also CASAs recommendations as to how to satisfy a regulation, in this case CAR 166. Try defending yourself in court if there’s an incident and you have decided you have a better method of satisfying Reg166

.That's correct, you won't be prosecuted by CASA for not using them, but they do fit the position of industry safety benchmarks, and you could lose your house if you ignore known safety benchmarks. I

The reason things seem to work in reverse these days is that if CASA were to make it mandatory to do a specific thing and you did and you crashed, it's likely that CASA would be paying out.

 

By CASA making a recommendation it's up to you to either follow it or come up with an even safer one. Either way, the lawsuit if something goes wrong will be against you. If, at the time you were complying with the safety benchmark, you have a very good defence; if not it's probably not going to go all that well.

 

I can remember the afternoon when we had our Corporate Lawyer in to give us a talk on some new developments. At the end some of the guys started asking questions about a regulation were the government had offloaded risk on to us. It involved us checking the new trucks rather than the registration authority. They just didn't want to learn how to do it. It was all verbal, no one had any documents. One said; "the regulation isn't mandatory, it says it's recommended".

 

The lawyer, who had started packing away her books said "If that's what it says then you don't have to comply with it". A couple of others said much the same and she gave the same answer - which was different to what I'd been telling them.

 

I said "The document is a National Code of Practice, and it says "For safety and stability the following is recommended; what would happen if someone knew this and still didn't carry out the calculations?"

 

She said In that case the code of practice is a safety document and the person could be charged with manslaughter in the case of a fatality, and most likely would not have a leg to stand on if they were sued.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

... The rep went on to say "if there is no-one else around why bother making calls?...126.7 is far too busy for idle chit chat.

How can you clutter up the airwaves when nobody is around?

 

 

[derekliston]

My final words on this subject. I have just read 166-01 and the wording is variously, require, must and should. My understanding of require or required is the same as must, as for instance if I am flying into Archerfield and say “Request runway 28R” the controller can deny that. However, if I say “Require runway 28R” then that is what I get, no argument. I agree that it gets a bit foggy when it is ‘required where the possibility of collision exists’ I am not sure how one can define that. In so much as, if no one gives a call then the possibility of collision must exist unless you can be 100% sure of seeing any other aircraft, I know I am not. I shall continue to give only the recommended calls, no more, no less, unless I do have to respond to another aircraft. Just a last question, I fly GA with a PPL and had to do a radiotelephony test many years ago. Is this still a requirement for RAAus or for that matter PPL?

 

 

[BirdDog]

Derek,

 

My understanding is if not RAA, then you will need an AROC at minimum to use a radio.

 

I am an AROC instructor and I still personally think it’s just stupid not to make a 6 second radio call to let whomever might be there know you are there.

 

I just don’t get why anyone would want to sit in an ivory castle and stamp their feet like a spoilt child complaining about making calls. Simply ridiculous!!

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Derek,My understanding is if not RAA, then you will need an AROC at minimum to use a radio.

 

I am an AROC instructor and I still personally think it’s just stupid not to make a 6 second radio call to let whomever might be there know you are there.

 

I just don’t get why anyone would want to sit in an ivory castle and stamp their feet like a spoilt child complaining about making calls. Simply ridiculous!!

You’ve obviously not operated at a busy non towered airport to make such a statement. SOPs are developed for a reason, I guess I am used to dealing with professional aviators who understand how standard operating procedures work.

I don’t understand why people think it’s neccessary, or safer, to broadcast an inbound call at 10NM, 5NM, approaching overhead, joining the circuit, turning downwind, turning base, turning final, short final and clear of the “active” (whatever that means).

 

Or taxying, entering the runway, rolling, full class D type departure report, leaving the CTAF and chatting to any other aircraft within 10NM of the CTAF even when there’s no possible conflict.

 

 

[BirdDog]

Ahaha. Ok mate no problem. You do it your way brother. All good here.

 

 

[M61A1]

How can you clutter up the airwaves when nobody is around?

I find frequently that the airwaves are cluttered, often by a single pilot operating at a strip 40 odd miles away, add to that several parachute operations that are within a hundred or so mile radius and a myriad of smaller strips for about 100 miles around.

 

 

[ISA]

You’ve obviously not operated at a busy non towered airport to make such a statement. SOPs are developed for a reason, I guess I am used to dealing with professional aviators who understand how standard operating procedures work.I don’t understand why people think it’s neccessary, or safer, to broadcast an inbound call at 10NM, 5NM, approaching overhead, joining the circuit, turning downwind, turning base, turning final, short final and clear of the “active” (whatever that means).

Or taxying, entering the runway, rolling, full class D type departure report, leaving the CTAF and chatting to any other aircraft within 10NM of the CTAF even when there’s no possible conflict.

All true at times. As you would know SOP's are developed for an individual company, outside of their cockpit they don't apply to anyone else.

 

It's never a perfect world in the R/T world where we have a wide spread level of experience using the same airspace. It can't be fixed mainly because what is 'fixed'? Personally I adapt my R/T to suit the situation on the day, the following day it could be entirely different. Like all rules & regs they really are only a basis in which to work from. Having good situational awareness is ones best defence

 

 

[Roundsounds]

All true at times. As you would know SOP's are developed for an individual company, outside of their cockpit they don't apply to anyone else.It's never a perfect world in the R/T world where we have a wide spread level of experience using the same airspace. It can't be fixed mainly because what is 'fixed'? Personally I adapt my R/T to suit the situation on the day, the following day it could be entirely different. Like all rules & regs they really are only a basis in which to work from. Having good situational awareness is ones best defence

In this case I’m referring to the published AIP / CAAP procedures as SOP. As you say, these are a starting point and varied based on the actual situation. The problem I have being a growing number of pilots routinely make many broadcasts way beyond those recommended because they have decided to develop their own procedures. The constant chatter becomes white noise after a while, leads to an inability to make recommended broadcasts and makes flight training difficult. I train published procedures, students hear other pilots making unnecessary broadcasts and think they too should be. It also makes it difficult to provide instructional input and feedback as I always stop talking so both me and the student can listen to RT.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I find frequently that the airwaves are cluttered, often by a single pilot operating at a strip 40 odd miles away, add to that several parachute operations that are within a hundred or so mile radius and a myriad of smaller strips for about 100 miles around.

I had presumed my radio only reaches about 20miles, based on the replies I receive; how many of us have tested the range of our transmissions? In rural areas we are spoiled in many ways, but I guess we should be aware of nearby CTAFs that share our frequency.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I had presumed my radio only reaches about 20miles, based on the replies I receive; how many of us have tested the range of our transmissions? In rural areas we are spoiled in many ways, but I guess we should be aware of nearby CTAFs that share our frequency.

That will never be a problem if you use the correct phraseology and transmission points. Most airfields around the east coast overlap from time to time, but you never get the numbers of a city airfield.

 

 

[derekliston]

I find frequently that the airwaves are cluttered, often by a single pilot operating at a strip 40 odd miles away, add to that several parachute operations that are within a hundred or so mile radius and a myriad of smaller strips for about 100 miles around.

Agreed that is a major problem with 126.7, around the Warwick area one can hear aircraft from miles around, even as far as Evans Head one day, sometimes difficult to decipher where they are. Fortunately Warwick has a discrete frequency so overcrowding not a problem. ( Okay, I lied, I said previously that was my last comment on this subject!!)

 

 

[derekliston]

In this case I’m referring to the published AIP / CAAP procedures as SOP. As you say, these are a starting point and varied based on the actual situation. The problem I have being a growing number of pilots routinely make many broadcasts way beyond those recommended because they have decided to develop their own procedures. The constant chatter becomes white noise after a while, leads to an inability to make recommended broadcasts and makes flight training difficult. I train published procedures, students hear other pilots making unnecessary broadcasts and think they too should be. It also makes it difficult to provide instructional input and feedback as I always stop talking so both me and the student can listen to RT.

Totally with you on that one. I don’t believe in too many calls but I always call turning downwind and turning base because I never know who is around and not broadcasting!