Joining "crosswind" or joining "midfield crosswind"?

[Downunder]

It annoy's the heck out of me when pilots call "joining cross-wind" when they are actually joining "midfield crosswind". I'm not sure if it is laziness or they are actually taught that, but it happens alot.

 

"Crosswind" is the leg between upwing and downwind so confusion exists when making the call if it is actually "midfield crosswind" that is being joined.......

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I agree. If you will be crossing the runway it is midfield, otherwise you join the crosswind leg somewhere well upwind, probably 1 km upwind of the end of the runway.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

It annoy's the heck out of me when pilots call "joining cross-wind" when they are actually joining "midfield crosswind". I'm not sure if it is laziness or they are actually taught that, but it happens alot."Crosswind" is the leg between upwing and downwind so confusion exists when making the call if it is actually "midfield crosswind" that is being joined.......

Downunder, these pilots are who are annoying you are in fact doing the right thing. The standard circuit entry on crosswind is based on overflying the upwind threshold and that has been for the past 40 plus years I’ve been flying, instructing and testing in both GA and RAA. The broadcast of “joining crosswind” indicates you would be overflying the upwind threshold to join the circuit, the recent trend to state “joining midfield crosswind” is unnecessary. https://www.casa.gov.au/file/182536/download?token=ev1DY9ng

 

To join crosswind any further upwind of the upwind threshold is unsafe, you may then be flying over an aircraft climbing to circuit height on the normal crosswind leg.

 

Below is a link to the CASA CAAP on non-controlled aerodrome procedures.

 

 

[MartyG]

You would think it was laziness & not what they have been taught, With aircraft in the circuit area being in close proximity to each other that is not the time for vauge position reports. The last thing you need in the circuit is looking for someone where they say they are and not being able to find them because their crossing 200ft behind you on downwind.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Thanks Roundsounds. That Fig 3 is new to me, it doesn’t mention joining crosswind, only joining midfield crosswind. Im sure the figure I have in my flight bag is different, printed off maybe five years ago. Does that mean we can’t join crosswind anymore?

 

 

[octave]

5.6.3 Aircraft descending on the non-active side of the circuit should be established at circuit altitude by the time they cross the runway centreline on crosswind, somewhere between midfield and the departure end of the runway

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Thanks Roundsounds. That Fig 3 is new to me, it doesn’t mention joining crosswind, only joining midfield crosswind. Im sure the figure I have in my flight bag is different, printed off maybe five years ago. Does that mean we can’t join crosswind anymore?

I’ve always joined crosswind over the upwind threshold, overflying the normal crosswind leg is unsafe. The CAAP simply states what has been taught for many years.

 

 

[aro]

Interesting question. I am not sure what the current official recommendations are.

 

When I was learning, I was taught the standard circuit join was "crosswind" at the departure end of the runway. Sometime after that the procedure was changed to "midfield crosswind" over the middle of the runway. It could have changed again.

 

The advantage of joining over the departure end instead of the middle is that if you have an aircraft joining for 18 and another joining for 36, you have a full circuit to figure it out instead of figuring it out when you are head on at the circuit join...

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Interesting question. I am not sure what the current official recommendations are.When I was learning, I was taught the standard circuit join was "crosswind" at the departure end of the runway. Sometime after that the procedure was changed to "midfield crosswind" over the middle of the runway. It could have changed again.

 

The advantage of joining over the departure end instead of the middle is that if you have an aircraft joining for 18 and another joining for 36, you have a full circuit to figure it out instead of figuring it out when you are head on at the circuit join...

The information is out there, it’s just a matter of keeping up to speed. The CAAP says to join between midfield and the departure end of the runway, I personally aim for the upwind threshold which satisfies the intent of the CAAP. Having said that, between midfield and the departure end of the runway is the correct procedure.

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/182536/download?token=ev1DY9ng

 

You’ll also find it in AIP and the VFRG

 

Arrivals, departures and transits | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

 

[MartyG]

Downunder, these pilots are who are annoying you are in fact doing the right thing. The standard circuit entry on crosswind is based on overflying the upwind threshold and that has been for the past 40 plus years I’ve been flying, instructing and testing in both GA and RAA. The broadcast of “joining crosswind” indicates you would be overflying the upwind threshold to join the circuit, the recent trend to state “joining midfield crosswind” is unnecessary. https://www.casa.gov.au/file/182536/download?token=ev1DY9ngTo join crosswind any further upwind of the upwind threshold is unsafe, you may then be flying over an aircraft climbing to circuit height on the normal crosswind leg.

Below is a link to the CASA CAAP on non-controlled aerodrome procedures.

Absolutely right Roundsounds but i think Down under was referring to pilots joining crosswind through the the very middle of runway, I would never join crosswind beyond the departure threshold for the very reason you stated. But if I am near midfield on downwind and someone calls joining crosswind I am naturally going to start looking towards the departure threshold area, not 90 degrees to my immediate right.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I agree. If you will be crossing the runway it is midfield, otherwise you join the crosswind leg somewhere well upwind, probably 1 km upwind of the end of the runway.

A kilometre upwind is a long way if the noise stops.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Absolutely right Roundsounds but i think Down under was referring to pilots joining crosswind through the the very middle of runway, I would never join crosswind beyond the departure threshold for the very reason you stated. But if I am near midfield on downwind and someone calls joining crosswind I am naturally going to start looking towards the departure threshold area, not 90 degrees to my immediate right.

I would hope you would have sighted the aircraft well and truely before they broadcast their crosswind entry. Also knowing a standard crosswind entry is made between midfield and the DER you’d scan that airspace.

 

I find too many RAAus pilots don’t know where to find rules, reg’s and official guidance material. There seems to be too much reliance on what they were taught, as opposed to what’s written. CASA have tried to make life easier for the sport pilot/PPL holder by producing the VFRG, I just don’t think too many read it.

 

 

[MartyG]

I would hope you would have sighted the aircraft well and truely before they broadcast their crosswind entry. Also knowing a standard crosswind entry is made between midfield and the DER you’d scan that airspace.I find too many RAAus pilots don’t know where to find rules, reg’s and official guidance material. There seems to be too much reliance on what they were taught, as opposed to what’s written. CASA have tried to make life easier for the sport pilot/PPL holder by producing the VFRG, I just don’t think too many read it.

Absolutely agree m8, mine was just an example, Eyes outside more than in for sure, Just think people should be more precise with position calls. Cheers

 

 

[pylon500]

It annoy's the heck out of me when pilots call "joining cross-wind" when they are actually joining "midfield crosswind"

I can agree with experienced pilots getting annoyed with what happens around the circuit, and my observations are that some pilots partially miss the point of circuit area calls.

Many pilots think that the call is to state intent, and that the other words thrown in are just part of the 'jargon', not realising that part of the call is also to state location.

 

There are then parts of the 'jargon' that tend to be defined by accepted norms rather than hard definition on paper.

 

Trying to fix that situation runs into a double edge sword which has us adding more words to the call, which at a busy airfield (or in my situation of two airfields in reasonable proximity, on the same frequency), can quickly fill up the airwaves with constant chatter.

 

Case in point, the word 'downwind' can be used on it's own, or prefixed by a choice of four other words; Joining, turning, mid or late.

 

The 'unwritten' rule has the singular word on it's own, is used in between turning and mid.

 

All four variants state the same intent, but individually, they all propose a fairly specific location except 'joining', which can be a red herring.

 

So, if you say;

 

Turning down wind, you're at that point (already in a circuit) going from crosswind to downwind, supposedly out roughly at a forty five degree angle from the end of the strip you took off from (angles may vary...)

 

Downwind, on it's own, suggests (colloquially) that you are between turning and mid downwind, which leads to;

 

Mid downwind, which has you halfway along the strip.

 

Late downwind, means you either forgot to call downwind or couldn't get a call in due to radio traffic, but you're about to turn Base anyway.

 

The tricky one is;

 

Joining downwind, with no other locative word, implies you are new to the circuit at roughly the 'turning downwind' point.

 

If you want to 'join' the circuit at any other point, that position needs to be stated, to give a position to your intention.

 

So, 'joining mid downwind' and 'joining late downwind' define an intent and a location.

 

Some slightly confusing prefixes are 'long' and 'early' downwind.

 

Joining long downwind implies you are actually further upwind in the circuit than the crosswind position, and intending to fly into the circuit for the first time.

 

If for some reason you had to extend your upwind after takeoff, and want to let others in the circuit know that you're still technically in circuit (but breaking out the VTC), then you can call;

 

Turning wide crosswind when you change from runway heading, or just;

 

Turning long downwind as you pick up the downwind leg direction.

 

Saying Early downwind is just confusing, but is really the word to use between 'turning' and 'mid' if you don't want to use the statement 'downwind' on it's own.

 

See, clear as mud!

 

I blame all errors on it being late, and that I should be in bed![/i]

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I can agree with experienced pilots getting annoyed with what happens around the circuit, and my observations are that some pilots partially miss the point of circuit area calls.Many pilots think that the call is to state intent, and that the other words thrown in are just part of the 'jargon', not realising that part of the call is also to state location.

There are then parts of the 'jargon' that tend to be defined by accepted norms rather than hard definition on paper.

 

Trying to fix that situation runs into a double edge sword which has us adding more words to the call, which at a busy airfield (or in my situation of two airfields in reasonable proximity, on the same frequency), can quickly fill up the airwaves with constant chatter.

 

Case in point, the word 'downwind' can be used on it's own, or prefixed by a choice of four other words; Joining, turning, mid or late.

 

The 'unwritten' rule has the singular word on it's own, is used in between turning and mid.

 

All four variants state the same intent, but individually, they all propose a fairly specific location except 'joining', which can be a red herring.

 

So, if you say;

 

Turning down wind, you're at that point (already in a circuit) going from crosswind to downwind, supposedly out roughly at a forty five degree angle from the end of the strip you took off from (angles may vary...)

 

Downwind, on it's own, suggests (colloquially) that you are between turning and mid downwind, which leads to;

 

Mid downwind, which has you halfway along the strip.

 

Late downwind, means you either forgot to call downwind or couldn't get a call in due to radio traffic, but you're about to turn Base anyway.

 

The tricky one is;

 

Joining downwind, with no other locative word, implies you are new to the circuit at roughly the 'turning downwind' point.

 

If you want to 'join' the circuit at any other point, that position needs to be stated, to give a position to your intention.

 

So, 'joining mid downwind' and 'joining late downwind' define an intent and a location.

 

Some slightly confusing prefixes are 'long' and 'early' downwind.

 

Joining long downwind implies you are actually further upwind in the circuit than the crosswind position, and intending to fly into the circuit for the first time.

 

If for some reason you had to extend your upwind after takeoff, and want to let others in the circuit know that you're still technically in circuit (but breaking out the VTC), then you can call;

 

Turning wide crosswind when you change from runway heading, or just;

 

Turning long downwind as you pick up the downwind leg direction.

 

Saying Early downwind is just confusing, but is really the word to use between 'turning' and 'mid' if you don't want to use the statement 'downwind' on it's own.

 

See, clear as mud!

 

I blame all errors on it being late, and that I should be in bed![/i]

Downwind calls were introduced when secondary airports changed to GAAP procedures. (secondary airports were capitol city GA places like Bankstown, Archerfield, Moorabbin etc). Prior to the introduction of GAAP, aircraft routinely reported turning base with intentions at both controlled and non-controlled airports. The change to a downwind call suited ATC as it allowed them to better sequence aircraft. A base call is still a more appropriate routine circuit call than a downwind call at non-controlled airports. Routine downwind calls have crept in over the years as pilots trained under GAAP flew into non-controlled airports.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

A kilometre upwind is a long way if the noise stops.Kaz

One km was my guess on how far upwind I make a crosswind turn at our 600m long strip. The strip is certainly well behind me. I guess I hit 500 feet after one minute in the air, at 60 knots with no headwind it would be one NM but with a bit of headwind say one km.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

While I agree about what the rules state but like many casa rules the rationale is often wrong.

 

At my airport the huge range of aircraft performance means aircraft starting a roll at the threshold have liftoff distances everywhere from 100 m to about ( at a guess)600 m

 

Some use threshold departures, some intersection departures.

 

By midfield many of them are already at 500 ft and by upwind threshold many are already at 1000 ft.

 

But then some at midfield are barely off the ground and at the upwind threshold are maybe a few hundred feet up. The ag guys when fully loaded are barely off the ground for a km or so out. And for others it’s anything in between.

 

Far too many assumptions in the rules. Entry at any point is just as likely to have a collision.

 

Basically I disbelieve all position calls until I see the aircraft.