SSB Lithium Iron batteries

[Blueadventures]

I see these Lithium Ion batteries are being used by one of the skyranger dealers overseas for Rotax 912 setups.  They may be an ok type of battery at only 0.7kg. 185mm long, 79mm wide and 192mm high.  Anyone using these. Cheers.

 

[Kyle Communications]

Not by me thats for sure when on a Rotax

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Wow! I started this conversation over a year ago.

 

Just to muddy the waters a bit - Cost is a factor for most of us: I purchased my (relativly conventional) motorcycle battery in August 2013 for $140 ($21.54/annum) -still going strong. For those that might be interested its :

 

"SSB Power Sport XR Series, High Performance AGM Battery"  Part No RB16CL-B

 

 

[Downunder]

Not by me thats for sure when on a Rotax

 

I would have to agree.

 

I'll take the extra 5 odd kilos for an AGM over one of these at the moment.

 

I really don't think the Rotax regulator is up to it.

 

My ODYESSEY is still running strong after close to 7 yrs.

 

Perhaps at 10 yrs I'll look at how they are going if my battery needs replacement.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I would have to agree.

 

I'll take the extra 5 odd kilos for an AGM over one of these at the moment.

 

I really don't think the Rotax regulator is up to it.

 

My ODYESSEY is still running strong after close to 7 yrs.

 

Perhaps at 10 yrs I'll look at how they are going if my battery needs replacement.

 

I have been involved with the development of a new reg for the Rotax generator. The Rotax is certainly not a nice presentation to the reg and if the reg ever goes funny with either a bad earth or some sort of funky failure the lithium will most likely end up being a 4000deg fireball. Even with the internal protection circuits some of them have. The good old AGM or even a lead acid battery is a far better idea for this type of std generator and regulator. If your electrically minded you will see the unloaded output from the rotax which is in the range of 50V peak to peak as you can see on the cro. With our reg you can see what happens as we use the amount of each cycle which is over 400hz needed to supply the current to a load. The Rotax is good supposedly for 18amps but ours will limit the charge current 12 amps into the battery and clamps the voltage very fast to maintain the correct dc level to the battery

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Impressive Kyle - when can we expect to purchase one.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I would have to agree.

 

I'll take the extra 5 odd kilos for an AGM over one of these at the moment.

 

I really don't think the Rotax regulator is up to it.

 

My ODYESSEY is still running strong after close to 7 yrs.

 

Perhaps at 10 yrs I'll look at how they are going if my battery needs replacement.

 

How much did your Odyessy cost ??

 

What does it weigh ??

 

What is its performance?

 

My SSB cost $140 (in 2013) and weighs 6.6 kg. Delivers CCA 385 & 19 AMP Hours.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

A rigorous testing program is to come yet. The first test unit should be going on a aircraft in a couple of weeks. The base design is done and works very well on the test bench and the pics should give you an idea of what it does and does very well. There is some failsafe design on board as well. We have been using my test rig I use for testing the CDI modules I make for the rotax. It can get to 5200 rpm driving the rotax generator so we do have a real world test bed for it which allows the proving before it even gets to a aircraft

 

 

 

[Downunder]

How much did your Odyessy cost ??

 

What does it weigh ??

 

What is its performance?

 

My SSB cost $140 (in 2013) and weighs 6.6 kg. Delivers CCA 385 & 19 AMP Hours.

 

 

 

PC 625     

 

https://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc625.htm

 

Selected at the time for being a reputable brand, similar weight(for aircraft balance), similar physical specs (to fit the mount)to my previous batt, but much greater performance.

 

Spins the 912 uls at 400 rpm cold.... mags off...with minimal voltage drop.

 

I no doubt paid more than you.

 

I think it is an important factor for their life expectancy to charge with a mains charger after flight as they(AGM) like to be charged tp 14.7 volts and the aircraft charging systems never get it there.

 

I now keep an eye on it with a "load test" every now and then. Can't compare to new as I didn't test it back then....

 

I've seen quite a few Rotax aircraft with PC 310's but I consider them a bit small....and they don't seem to last that long....

 

I know of a few that had to be replaced prematurely. ...

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Thanks for that Downunder,

 

Yes, it would seem you have paid considerably more for your Odyssey.

 

Performance (claimed) - Odyssey lower than the SSB I purchased, except in Hot Pulse for which I have no comparative figures.

 

Dimensions - Odyssey slightly (mm) smaller width/length,  hight ,  the same.

 

Weight- Odyssey 0.6 kg lighter

 

Like you I give my battery a bit of a "tickle" on the charger from time to time (not as regular as you).

 

Hopefully some considerable time (years)down the track you & I will be replacing our respective batteries - it would be great to get back on this thread/conversation at that time to share observations.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...the lithium will most likely end up being a 4000deg fireball...

 

Mark I might have missed something, but which sort of lithium battery are you talking about?

 

 It is my understanding that Lithium Ferro Phosphate batteries don't just not burn, they cannot.

 

Lots of aviators have been flying with LiFe PO4 batteries for years without drama. As you say, the charging system  might need a new regulator. I fitted a Qld-built PowerMate and I'm happy.

 

 

[Yenn]

Old K has hit the spot. There are many types of lithium batteries, of which the LiFePO are I believe the only ones suitable for aviation.

 

The usual Odyssey is the PC 680,which is OK for Rotax or Jabiru. They do not like trickle charging. I use a Full River battery which is just about identical to Odyssey except for the colour and lesser price.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

The LiFePo4 batteries are certainly "safer" than the others. But there are still many issues with them. Have a look how they should be transported..they must be drained of 99.1% of their energy as the risk at any larger capacity is deemed too great. Yes they have all this funky circuitry inside to stop a lot of issues but the engery available is much more than a older style wet/gell cell. I know of at least 2 of the Earth X batteries that have failed up here and the owners have gone back to std type batteries. On this thread there was a guy who has had some alarm issues due to the Rotax reg and generator. If the Rotax reg was different then yes I would say use the Po4 but while you are using the std setup NO 

 

A std car alternator doesnt run at 400 plus hz in its normal working area and the reg currently on a rotax is setup NOT for Lithium style batteries. They are setup of the std older style batteries. There are a lot of provisos in the charging system to take full advantage of a lithium battery

 

 

[jetjr]

"the PC 680,which is OK for Rotax or Jabiru. They do not like trickle charging"

 

Interested in more on this, I had a ~ 5 year old PC680 fail after I started regularly leaving on Ctek charger  - supposed to be Ok for maintenance on AGM

 

 

[Yenn]

I think the trickle charging problem is due to the voltage not being sufficient, that is with solar charging. The battery needs x volts to charge, but the solar trickle voltage is just below it. My Odyssey’s certainly last longer without trickle charge. They do not work well in winter. In Summer they revive and work far better.

 

 

[Downunder]

"the PC 680,which is OK for Rotax or Jabiru. They do not like trickle charging"

 

Interested in more on this, I had a ~ 5 year old PC680 fail after I started regularly leaving on Ctek charger  - supposed to be Ok for maintenance on AGM

 

I'm unsure about this, however I generally give it a charge after a flight to get it back to 14.7 then turn it off and give it another top up before the next flight.

 

My main concern is stories of aircraft mysteriously catching fire while left unattended under trickle charge....

 

I also use a ctek.

 

I did read somewhere (ctek or odyssey) that a minimum of a 6amp charger should be used with agm batteries.

 

Mine is a 5 amp and consider it probably ok with these smaller agm's.

 

My model is "pre agm setting" so use the snowflake/cold setting, which is specified for agm's.

 

Were you trickle charging on the agm setting or just standard lead-acid?

 

 

[kgwilson]

I have a Motobatt MBTX20U AGM battery, 310 CCA & 21 Ah, weighs 6.5kg & was new in 2012 though not installed for 2 years after that. I trickle charge it via my roof top 20W solar panel which also charges 3 other batteries in my hangar at the same time via the Solar controller. I just connect the system up via the power outlet on the panel which is directly connected to the battery every time I put the plane away. It spins the 3300 jab easily even on cold winter mornings & is showing no signs of deterioration (touch wood). It cost around $120.00 back then.

 

 

[Thruster88]

I am also a fan of Motobatt, use mbtx14 in the thruster. They have plenty of grunt for the price.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I've got a Hobbyking LiFePO4 battery of 8.4 amp-hours and rated cranking  at 252 amps. It weighs 0.9 kg and has no protection circuits at all. It is only used to start the motor, and it is isolated again as soon as the voltage reaches 14.2 , this charging is from the standard Jabiru alternator. The starting draw is often replaced before the plane moves.

 

It would be good to have an automatic system to do this without me having to remember to do the job. So far, I can't think of how to do this without some small draw from the battery and any draw would not be acceptable.

 

So far, this setup has been reliable .  Kyle Comms is correct to say that these batteries have to be treated carefully. They can be destroyed if the terminal voltage is not kept within a range. 

 

My old ( 6kg ) Odyssey battery was more robust, once it was left with the master on for a week and then brought back from dead flat. This battery is, 4 years later, going well in a farm buggy. Why did I change? For the weight saving.

 

I think that the newer LiFePO4 batteries have protection circuits and it may be safe to leave them on charge when in the air.  My recommendation is to find the REAL amp-hours you are buying and not be tricked by some " lead-acid equivalent " figure which I suspect greatly overstates the real capacity.

 

 

[Downunder]

would be good to have an automatic system to do this without me having to remember to do the job.

 

https://www.jaycar.com.au/universal-voltage-switch/p/KC5377

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

https://www.jaycar.com.au/universal-voltage-switch/p/KC5377

 

Actually that looks handy. Certainly cheap enough seeing they are discontinued. I just did around the stores and the only ones in store just happen to be the stores closest to me so might whiz down tomorrow after i get back from the farm and pick up a couple

 

 

[M61A1]

I am also a fan of Motobatt, use mbtx14 in the thruster. They have plenty of grunt for the price.

 

I was going to post the exact opposite......never used one in an aircraft, they aren't good enough for my bikes. Replaced my last one with a SSB AGM battery which has way more power for the same size and have had no more problems.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I cant remember the brand of mine but I am on my second one in 8 years..replaced it about 2 years ago. Its a AGM but a sports one used in JetSki's...I think its either 18 or 24amp hr They have been flawless

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Thanks downunder, will that circuit actually have zero drain when the aircraft is sitting in the hangar? That's a big ask. I don't think that cars have zero drain when parked.

 

A tractor at the farm got a flat battery after sitting unused for 2 months  ( all things turned off ) and needed an isolator switch to be fitted to prevent this happening again. Obviously, turning off is not exactly the same as isolating, but if you use the thing at least once a month, you would never know.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Maybe the monitoring circuit could have it's own separate power supply? I have something like this for the temperature monitoring system. This system just doesn't work with a common earth . So it has a small separate battery which is connected to the main battery when not flying. If that small battery developed a fault such that it drained the main battery, that would be bad news but so far it has not happened and it stops drawing from the main battery when it is charged.