Alternative to steam gauges... opinions sought

[derekliston]

All of these very interesting takes on this theme are quite fascinating, everything from total technophiles to utter technophobes. You have seen my previous comments but just to elucidate a little. When I was building I was not at all sure whether to go for the traditional ‘steam’ instruments or glass. I didn’t know how well I would go with glass. My eventual decision was made because the Dynon Skyview was cheaper overall than a set of instruments, it was a lot lighter and possibly a simpler installation. I really didn’t find it difficult to make the transition and now would not swap it.

 

 

[derekliston]

Kenlsa, if you look at my previous posts on this topic you will see that I have stand alone glass!

 

 

[dsam]

If glass is so good , why do all of you that have glass also have steam as a backup? It just adds weight. If you love glass so much just run with it. But I guess you don't really trust it do you? We fly VFR and under RAAus we need minimal gauges. Keep it simple... Though I have weakened and got an iPad with navigation it has let me down a couple of times. So I have a gps as well. Perhaps I should just stick to my old Shell road maps for Nav! Ken

Post #106 above: no steam, just glass...

 

 

[rgmwa]

If glass is so good , why do all of you that have glass also have steam as a backup?

Mostly because they remind me of the old days. Besides, they look nice.

 

 

[kasper]

If glass is so good , why do all of you that have glass also have steam as a backup? It just adds weight. If you love glass so much just run with it. But I guess you don't really trust it do you? We fly VFR and under RAAus we need minimal gauges. Keep it simple... Though I have weakened and got an iPad with navigation it has let me down a couple of times. So I have a gps as well. Perhaps I should just stick to my old Shell road maps for Nav! Ken

I did on the trike.  Gx1 for engine and flight instruments and avmap geopilot II for nav.  Adding a microair m760 radio and a Trig mode a transponder and I happily flew all around Europe and the UK with no steam back up. 

 

But it to be fair a trike has a very old school secondary asi ... bar position ?

 

 

[Markdun]

Nev, my apologies if you took what I said applied to you.  It was actually a reference to my age.  When my kids were 6 or 7 they used to think that dinosaurs were around when their grandfather was young.   Now, my grandkids think the same about me. 

 

My point was that the tension between those that rely on more recent technolgy and those that rely on older methods is not new.  When i was sailing in the '80s using a sextant a 'fix' was within a 5nm radius or there abouts...you adjusted your navigation accordingly....i didn't try a night passage through a gap in a reef of only 1 to 2 cables wide. ..I hove to 10nm away & waited for daybreak (to be woken by a French navy patrol boat). Others with transit satellite nav & radar went straight through (& didn't have the experience of receiving a rousing cheer & waves from the french sailors when I stumbled naked into the cockpit to investigate the noise of the patrol boat). I would sail straight through now too with GPS.

 

I think you are wrong on GPS unreliability now.  ADSB relies on GPS, as do lots of other things.  If the GPS system goes down,  then there are far bigger problems than a guy in a light aircraft.  And even if it did,  as an RAa pilot you just have to find a reasonable paddock to land. I rely on GPS for my nav in aircraft, on the sea and bushwalking.  I still carry paper maps and an orienteering compass but have not had to use them for ages except to teach others or to re-assure myself that things are tickety-boo.

 

I have two aircraft;  both with an MGL Xtreme EFIS/EMS as the main instrument and with a 'steam' ASI 'back-up'. I would be happy to replace the stream ASI for a secondary electronic ASI/ALT but the value is not there to justify it. There are some inflexibilities in the MGL Xtreme, but overall they are fantastic.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

 

[Marty_d]

I am starting to think ahead to my dashboard even though I am at the start of my aircraft build. I have a number of choices and, as I see it, they can be:

 

1. Steam gauges only supplied by the kit maker (so no extra cost).

 

2. Android or Eyepad based system, perhaps in conjunction with a BOM* (Broadcasting Outer Module) system as well as some essential steam gauges for redundancy.

 

3. A mixture of a 'workhorse' Dynon  D10A system along with some steam gauges.

 

4. Glass panels only.

 

I would be interested in people's thoughts about what is light effective and cost-friendly.

 

(Mike,

 

In addition to the Dynon D10A are your other instruments still steam gauges?)

Go with 4, and sell me your 1. ?

 

 

[M61A1]

Go with 4, and sell me your 1. ?

That's probably the best reason to go with steam gauges......There's enough good second hand ones on the market, at good prices now that a lot of people want glass.

 

 

[spacesailor]

A reply/

 

" The plane that hit Mt Erebus"

 

WAS NOT pilot error !.

 

The government CHANGED a known chart error & didn't tell ANYBODY.

 

They should have been charged with murder.

 

The pilot's home was raided by Government AGENTS, & police to remove any evidence or chance of defence.

 

One passenger had taken Every flight except that last one, (Cohen) & filmed all the approaches to the mountain,

 

After the remains were checked and photos/film reviewed, Mr Cohen immediately saw the disastrous approach ON the Wrong side of the mountain.

 

Then it became a "whiteout" nav by instruments,, Flying on the wrong side of the mountain, (because the chart was changed). 

 

Full power Climb and turn away,!, except it was Not away but TO their death.

 

( mr Cohen had two rooms full to the ceiling, of movie & still photography, from all around the world. That had to be rehoused as his landlord suddenly wanted him out)

 

spacesailor

 

From Mr Cohen himself to myself, when returning his projector.

 

 

[facthunter]

 I never said it was PILOT ERROR. I Don't use those words but they did RELY on a ONE basis of information instrument and it had had the track altered as you say without being advised of it. The Company went to great lengths to hide their mistake and put the blame on the pilot but it all came out eventually at a big enquiry... They didn't have "visual" conditions ands were descending to get a view for all the "notables" on board well below LSA ,TRUSTING the GPS track . With no other verification of where they actually were..  . As you approach a way point you CAN monitor the position and heading change. You normally carry a Route guide info with all tracks and distances on it. If they don't tally you know you have an error. Many waypoints were typed( Keyed) in and checked in those days against a printed  "official"data sheet .Track and distance  had to come up exactly correct for every position. or you found out why. Nev

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

That would be INS not GPS which wan't in service at the time.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

The ONE instrument you might want a steam gauge for is the ASI. Doesn't matter much in most phases of flight but for takeoff and landing it does and the airspeed should be scanned often. A round dial with a highly contrasting pointer is highly intuitive and gets a close enough answer for you in a fraction of a second as it shows an angle.  Digital gets a more precise answer but can take longer particularly in turbulence when the value is changing. This is the same reason that glider variometers aren't going digital anytime soon.

 

It isn't about glass, steam or anything but deciding on the mission, what information you need to accomplish it and the ergonomics of getting it accurately and quickly enough.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Probably was INS( Inertial) where it's even more difficult to see why the changes weren't checked. It would have been manually loaded from "something " Official" with a date on it Anyhow the relying on one source is the issue and  inertial drifts after time without an update or inflight  "FIX"  from aground station. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Launceston has worse weather than most places in Australia I reckon.  A mate of mine was flying a cargo plane into Launceston at night when he lost all of the electronic stuff due to water getting into the electronics.

 

He reckoned he earned his year's salary then, using the secondary stuff they usually didn't need. 

 

 

[frank marriott]

 Probably was INS( Inertial) where it's even more difficult to see why the changes weren't checked. It would have been manually loaded from "something " Official" with a date on it Anyhow the relying on one source is the issue and  inertial drifts after time without an update or inflight  "FIX"  from aground station. Nev

The “Mt. Erebus disaster” is a very involved matter.

 

Commercial pressures & passenger expectations & company advertising plus the alleged changing of waypoints AND whiteout conditions - plus plus.

 

The comments by Justice Mahon being the strongest I have seen from a Royal Commission of Inquiry with reference to alleged coverups. 

 

“I am forced reluctantly to say that I had to listen to an orchestrated litany of lies.” (Paragraph 377) It is the expression of such opinions that, ultimately, cost Justice Mahon his career.”

 

The bottom line is once you go below LSAL you are flying VFR procedures unless on an approved Aerodrome approach.

 

The point to be taken for RAA (& any VFR Pilots for that matter) without referring to the individual details of the Erebus disaster, is you must comply completely with the VFR rules no matter what toys you may have fitted to your instrument panel (approved or otherwise).

 

 

[skippydiesel]

It is an indictment of our system that the honest expression of concern or opinion, on a matter of public interest, is likely to result in the loss of employment/career. People who speak out should be richly rewarded by society but of course those in positions of power who do not want their dirty laundry exposed are able punish anyone who should have the temerity to speak out. That we as a society stand for this is a sad reflection on each of us.

 

 

[facthunter]

Vested Interests protect themselves whatever the cost to principle, integrity and truth Often.  Air New  Zealand had a god like status in NZ. . Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

Air NZ may have got off the hook, but I would never fly with them. Nor KLM, for similar reasons. Plus a few others that I have seen doing the wrong thing.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Marty, this might be what you're looking for.  Haven't tried it myself, but looks like a good alternative to steam gauges and the price should be right:

 

 

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

Thanks... might spend a LITTLE more than that...

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Marty, this might be what you're looking for.  Haven't tried it myself, but looks like a good alternative to steam gauges and the price should be right:

Love it !! Can probably create your own instruments - how about a reversing sensors ?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

This is probably the most appropriate thread to ask if anyone has found or built an AoA gauge based on simple differential air pressure sensors. They are cheap as chips and presumably sensitive enough to give a good indication of the difference between air pressure above and below the wing- ie. how much lift you have.

 

 

[dsam]

This is probably the most appropriate thread to ask if anyone has found or built an AoA gauge based on simple differential air pressure sensors. They are cheap as chips and presumably sensitive enough to give a good indication of the difference between air pressure above and below the wing- ie. how much lift you have.

My Dynon Skyview system uses differential pressure ports on their pitot tube.  You can see AoA depicted (below) as the coloured green/yellow/red segments just right of the airspeed “tape”.  I also get an audible beeping in the headsets just as I approach stall, with a solid tone within the stall.

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

This is probably the most appropriate thread to ask if anyone has found or built an AoA gauge based on simple differential air pressure sensors. They are cheap as chips and presumably sensitive enough to give a good indication of the difference between air pressure above and below the wing- ie. how much lift you have.

There's probably a few "seconds" from Boeing Max 8's on the market soon...

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

There are a few around that are being developed for DIY...using the differential method and there are a few also using a rotating vane. I am very interested myself so occasionally keep my finger on the pulse of the AOA add on