Small Flying Schools

[red750]

lets not prejudge how they are going to screw this up.

And they WILL screw it up.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

 

 

[Keith Page]

lets not prejudge how they are going to screw this up. There is always the opportunity for part time flying instructors, especially those with an existing client base, to join larger schools.

Why has an instructor got to join a larger school?

 

Why can't he stay where he is? People know the instructor and do not have to travel.

 

Imagine people coming into Toowoomba from Charleville as Downunder suggests they will give up.

 

Leave it all alone and promote the small establishments.

 

KP

 

 

[Thruster88]

Why has an instructor got to join a larger school?Why can't he stay where he is? People know the instructor and do not have to travel.

 

Imagine people coming into Toowoomba from Charleville as Downunder suggests they will give up.

 

Leave it all alone and promote the small establishments.

 

KP

An instructor has always needed to work under a CFI

 

A senior instructor can work a remote school under a CFI

 

A CFI can set up a school wherever they like, I guess i don't understand what you are saying Keith.

 

Ps I am not an instructor.

 

 

[billwoodmason]

Turbo’s Safety Management System is why - every Flying School now has to have one. So whats proposed is a pyramid system where an over arching Flight Training organisation big enough to have the resources to afford the SMS, and Office manager (to keep up with all the BS paperwork and compliance issues) who sees to it that satelite schools preach to the ever increasing standards being imposed by those above. I’ts a system where flying schools do the work for RAA head office.

 

There are changes similar to this going on in the GA training regime as we speak, I know of two who have decided not to continue to operate because of it. We are being screwed in every direction and are expected to like it.

 

 

[Keith Page]

An instructor has always needed to work under a CFIA senior instructor can work a remote school under a CFI

A CFI can set up a school wherever they like, I guess i don't understand what you are saying Keith.

 

Ps I am not an instructor.

Some of these little solo schools the instructor is the CFI. Thruster88 you are saying it is OK so am I.

However someone in their wisdom from head office thinks it is a good idea to wind back on these solo schools, that is what I am on about.

 

KP

 

 

[Keith Page]

Turbo’s Safety Management System is why - every Flying School now has to have one. So whats proposed is a pyramid system where an over arching Flight Training organisation big enough to have the resources to afford the SMS, and Office manager (to keep up with all the BS paperwork and compliance issues) who sees to it that satelite schools preach to the ever increasing standards being imposed by those above. I’ts a system where flying schools do the work for RAA head office.There are changes similar to this going on in the GA training regime as we speak, I know of two who have decided not to continue to operate because of it. We are being screwed in every direction and are expected to like it.

As you say Bill, people will close the schools because of all the paper work.

What needs not to be forgotten if things are made too hard people will give up and go and do other things or never start and go and do other things.

 

Which ever way you go aviation will be shrinking in Australia and just as Australia needs more pilots for the commercial sector.. Guess what Australia will be getting foreign pilots who have had foreign training not Australian.

 

There needs to be system which is not as complex and workable or Australia will be out of it.

 

KP

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

Safety is not that hard..

I agree - My point is the same as yours - the "industry" that surrounds the concept. After all, none of us want to die or kill anyone.

An analysis of the ICAO Safety Management Handbook illustrates that it is a "how to" for bureaucrats to build their empire, particularly if applied to a relatively defenceless sector like ours.

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

I do have concrete evidence.. However the point of this post is to get you all to be awake to this pending plan.KP.

I've got $10 that says you don't.

 

 

[Keith Page]

I've got $10 that says you don't.

$10 is not enough for me to squeal on my informants...

KP

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

At least under RAAus, once trained (just like GA) you can buy your aircraft and fly near where you live. The GFA insists you belong to a gliding club which requires a gliding CFI to be in charge (they are allowing non training clubs now - allegedly - but I'm sure they will make that as difficult as possible) in order for you to fly at all. All in the name of "safety", meanwhile running the most dangerous form of aeronautical hooliganism in the country - with lots of paperwork making it "safe". There used to be lots of small bush gliding clubs and the ones that haven't gone extinct yet are struggling. Meanwhile the GFA leadership, if you can call it that, bemoans the lack of people wanting to glide.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Instead of surveilling how flying schools operate we could adopt the US system. They have flying instructors (called CFIs - Certified Flight Instructors) who aren't necessarily operating in a school. Find one and he or she can agree to teach you to fly. When ready for the licence checkride(s) the CFI organises a designated examiner who tests the student on the ground and in flight and then can issue the certificate if the student is up to standard. Put up three students in a row who fail and your CFI ticket is suspended. The only people required to be supervised are the examiners. Beautiful simple system with built in quality control. Too easy for Australia I guess. Not enough opportunities for grift like building unnecessary empires paid for by honest men and women.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

This would be the death of the true AUF as it almost impossible to get training on true ultralights or proper tail wheel craft as it is now in the north hope this is just rumours and not fact !

 

 

[bull]

This would be the death of the true AUF as it almost impossible to get training on true ultralights or proper tail wheel craft as it is now in the north hope this is just rumours and not fact !

Sorry Doug but the LSA ex GA crowd have already killed the original reason for the formation of the AUF in the first place,RECREATIONAL FLYING,,,,everybody is missing the elephant in the room, THAT 70 % of the newer generation of lsa flying members flying under the rules of RAA are actually breaking those rules every day and a good lawyer would ensure that insurance for public liability ,[that the supporters of the raa hypocrisy] will tell you covers you ,,WILL not cover you if you are proven to be operating outside of the original ANO ie, Aircraft and certificate owners are NOT to use their aircraft for hire or REWARD,,,,HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU MEET AT AIRSHOWS FLYING RAA REGISTERED AIRCRAFT that ARE USING THAT AIRCRAFT TO FLY AROUND TO CLIENTS ,TO BUSINESS MEETINGS , TO DEMONSTRATE AIRCRAFT FOR POTENTIAL SALES ETC ie earning a REWARD from the use of said aircraft...…………….thereby operating outside of the original brief from CASA...……………..Ps thereis a huge difference between using a ga registered aircraft for this purpose, as ga do,s not have to operate to this brief from casa , so it is legal to use a private ppl and aircraft for this purpose,,,,BUT NOT AN RAA REGISTERED AIRCRAFT OR CERTIFICATE, AS IT IS SPECIFIC AND MUST BE OBEYED...is it not??????????

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

You actually cannot use a private GA aircraft for "hire or reward" either if you have a PPL. Are there two definitions of this at CASA?

 

 

[Keith Page]

This would be the death of the true AUF as it almost impossible to get training on true ultralights or proper tail wheel craft as it is now in the north hope this is just rumours and not fact !

Doug.. I had a thought, Now would these small flying schools be specialist in teaching the extra endorsements most people are looking for *Tail wheal *Low performance *Amphibians *Low level.. I can not imagine where there will be enough areas in the South East where those skills can be taught because there will be no country about where the practice exercises can be performed.

Take this manoeuvre regarding these small flying schools looks like an attempt to move all operations to the South East where there is the big schools with their mini GA aircraft. To me this a complete disregard for where RAAus has come from.

 

I do ask, If all goes to the South East and these specialist small schools have been closed.

 

Who is going to teach these very specialist skills?

 

KP

 

 

[SSCBD]

The burden and cost of compliance it is putting on members is the problem with RAA and it will increase as it is really a money game for RAA and those who are in the game to make money from RAA. Look at the commercial operators on the board and do they have a conflict of interest?

 

RAA is not fun anymore, to PC = to many rules and regs for a lot of members and its, just do this, or that, all under the smoke and mirrors of safety or control(loss of freedoms), for money.

 

Look at the costs to buy a new RAA TRAINING aircraft around $200k to $300k plus for the affluent schools.

 

Why would the one man CFI, who probably has his own property and operation flying in the country, say with a Drifter or Lightwing be allowed to compete to the big city boys.

 

What is the cost of inspection and compliance of a flying school from RAA and the school these days.

 

Also - Why would any student want to pay for around 12 mins just having the Rotax engine running lets say at $250 to $300 PER hour dual coast when operating on the ground at these so called big schools to get to the runway to take off. A lot of costs just to taxi around these bigger city type airports.

 

Where GA is costed at air time.

 

They we get to the problem of RAA instructors. If you have not flow with many different CFI's they all have THEIR little pet things they like done in a specific way. EG don't fly at 1000 ft in circuit, you fly at 990 ft, so the fin is not about the 1000ft. (true) Or fly so close in on downwind that turning base and final is really 180 degree turn. Some CFI's need to be retrained in my humble opinion, and watch out for the brand new shinny just minted RAA instructors. I would not let my daughter fly with some of them.

 

ON THE FLIP SIDE - Why would you learn to fly RAA these days any way when GA is in the long run is cheaper and you get better training, and then just fall back into RAA and be a better pilot for it than be trained by a RAA flying school.

 

Truly WHAT dose RAA stand for these days, it is not Recreational or fun. People here on this forum I have read refuse to fly into fly-ins as they might be RAMP checked of hauled over the coals for a minor operational infraction on radio for example (not that it caused ANY safety issues.

 

So in ending what has RAA done for all of you that are members and all cant agree on what you want?

 

I know some who just go of fly to the city type schools and airstrips a miss and do what they want and have a great time out the back blocks.

 

A lot of lucky guys have a strip on some land or property in the country and have the best flying. But what happens when no country CFI's are around to do a flight review - they might just go underground and fly with RAA and be a breakaway group that CASA had before AUF was invented.

 

You will also probably lose more wantabe students (new RAA members that pay money ) from the country that just find it to hard. Great sport we are in!

 

As one of these country guys said - I do my own stuff away from everyone else, on my own property and don't care!

 

I don't see RAA (the body) being around in this format over the next say 4 or 5 years. It is badly run, as usual and always has its hand out and dose not deliver.

 

About time for a new model that is fun and works for its members and holds the line against CASA.

 

 

[spacesailor]

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments.

 

"I don't see RAA (the body) being around in this format over the next say 4 or 5 years. It is badly run, as usual and always has its hand out and dose not deliver.

 

About time for a new model that is fun and works for its members and holds the line against CASA."

 

I don't think my meagre pittance is missed, as much as I miss flying.

 

I'ts awaiting game to see who folds first.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Thruster88]

Some of these little solo schools the instructor is the CFI. Thruster88 you are saying it is OK so am I.However someone in their wisdom from head office thinks it is a good idea to wind back on these solo schools, that is what I am on about.

KP

I know a single CFI RAA flying school that has immaculate aircraft, hanger etc, very dedicated and enthusiastic fellow with lots of happy students. RAA could not wind him bacķ nor would they want to.

 

Some time ago I did a flight review at another single CFI RAA flying school. My friend got about 3/4 thru his cert before he had had enough. This school no longer operates, I am not surprised. If It was the RAA that closed it I think that is a good thing.

 

I watched the AGM and members forum online yesterday, the only questions or talk about flying schools had to do with RPL conversions.

 

 

[Camel]

Hello interested humans only ! I'm writing to be informative and not argumentative ! I am a CFI in my own school due for an inspection and have already been sent an extension ! I'm not a busy school, I'm semi retired and I enjoy teaching, I hold many endorsements and hold a PPL too , I have never been told or given any indication they want to close me down and for that matter I'm probably not worth it to them as I don't bring in enough new members but I'm like a service ! I can train, BFR's, endorsements and keep an eye on this part of the world because if you read the Ops manual CFI's report things back to RAA Ops !

 

The truth be known as a business it is not viable, owning a hangar, plane and school, maintaining all these things, advertising, cleaning, paperwork, etc ! If I was closed down they probably done me a favour but I didn't start a school and become an instructor to get rich ! And I get very offended by those who think instructors and schools charge too much ! There is a lot to just owning a plane as many of you know but a school adds a lot of responsibility with little renumeration ! Some time ago a lot of damage was done to me and my school by a few big mouth experts, a couple posted on this web site, one has retired from flying as he realised he is not as good as he thought he was ! And another has slowly disappeared after not being as smart as he thought he was ! Raa supports it schools very well in my opinion and will talk to me if I have any questions or if they have any, I have never felt threatened by the system but only by a couple of students would felt they knew everything before they could fly properly !

 

A CFI has a tough job as he has to recognise if the person is safe to go on their own and they have to have the skill and the passion to get better ! , if they think they are already too good and bagging the system then you get a little worried ! So far I have been able to recognise instant geniuses and those with the passion to get good at stick and rudder flying !

 

A guy who I thought was a buddy and I got into flying GA many years ago back stabbed me to no end when I went back to ultralight flying, saying things like they are not real planes and just toys, this guy was only interested in his image and had no passion and was one of the worst pilots I have ever known and witnessed several near misses he made including entering a runway when a plane was landing and ignored all radio broadcasts and warnings !

 

Those who think training is not as good in RAA are very wrong as ultralight are harder to fly than larger GA planes, I hope those who read my post take my opinion seriously as it is very sincere !

 

Hope the beginners learn to get the passion for aviating and try to get good at it ! Without the passion it's just spending money ! Enjoy !

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

Well said Camel. Unfortunately this thread was started with unsubstantiated rubbish and it’s escalated from there. Thank you for your first hand level headed input

 

 

[Camel]

Well said Camel. Unfortunately this thread was started with unsubstantiated rubbish and it’s escalated from there. Thank you for your first hand level headed input

Thank you sir ! A pleasure to hear you with positive feed back, ! I'm happy to read people's opinion on here but thought this needed more facts ! I can join another school and teach any time I feel like it and probably make more money but I have my own style, don't stick to exact time always give a little extra because I love to fly, I have my own strip with no waiting, disadvantage is I have to mow it !

 

 

[Keith Page]

Thank you Camel well said...I do like your bit where you say, you give a little bit extra because you like flying, How great is that.

 

We need more like you.

 

KP.

 

 

[Keith Page]

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments."I don't see RAA (the body) being around in this format over the next say 4 or 5 years. It is badly run, as usual and always has its hand out and dose not deliver.

About time for a new model that is fun and works for its members and holds the line against CASA."

 

I don't think my meagre pittance is missed, as much as I miss flying.

 

I'ts awaiting game to see who folds first.

 

spacesailor

 

https://www.aircraftpilots.com/rating/like?content_type=post&content_id=683631&rating_type_id=1

Watch out Spacesailor they will be onto you..

With:------(Where is your evidence?)????????????

 

KP

 

 

[winsor68]

F_T You have missed a very big point, so hence it is quite obvious you live in the GSE.What about those small schools like Roma, Longreach even see there is a small school in Cunnamulla. Those organisations service a small clientele and imagine if these people had to travel to the GSE to do their flying. Isn't RAAus for sport and recreation.

These remote schools the instructor is only part time as the instructor has to have another job to survive as instructing/flying is basically a hobby.

 

KP

No one is hiring aircraft. They are just training. It is in many respects easier to travel to a training centre from many rural areas. As for no-annuals. Do em whole on holiday?