DONT CARRY KIDS ON LAPS

[motzartmerv]

I have added a thread here in case some new pilots who saw my original post in videos " landing at maitland with 3 yearold " don't revisit it. Drifetr driver posted a question, " can we carry children on passengers laps?", and i replied, "yes we can".. Before the flight i was signed out by my CFI who assured me it was legal to have him on the lap of my passenger providing he didnt share the seatbelt...

 

After speaking with the RAA technical director and re-reading the ops manual i need to retract my statements... WE AREN'T TO CARRY MORE THEN 2 PEOPLE IN ANY RAA ACFT REGARDLESS OF WEIGHT OR AGE..

 

I realise im probably in for some heat regarding this issue but i feel its much m,ore important to clariffy things especially for new pilots regarding th rules in this matter....

 

I am deeply sorry for my post and i just hope anyone who read it will read this and be better informed...

 

I have spoken with the RAA and theyare going to clarrify things with my CFI who is a long time GA commercial pilot and instructor.. While the GA rules regarding the carriage of passngers are different, the RAA rules are quite clear...

 

Once again, my appolagies....

 

cheers

 

 

[Guest airsick]

You say that you may be in for some heat by posting this here but I think quite the opposite. I applaud anyone who can readily admit their mistakes and share their experiences with others in the hope that some good will come out of it. This is precisely the type of thing that, in my view, adds extreme value to a forum like this.

 

I think anyone who wishes to persecute you for your behaviour should think about this. Firstly, what good will come of it? What is done is done, there is no point whining about it after the fact. You have spoken to RAA about it and if they see fit then they will take some action, who are we to judge?

 

Secondly, and more importantly, if people come into a forum like this and begin to criticise those who are bold enough to admit their mistakes and share their experiences then others will be less likely to share their experiences. Losing this aspect of the forums will see it turned into a social forum with no practical value other than staying in touch with the flying community.

 

I would also question those who criticise by asking have they really never done anything wrong? I doubt it...

 

Mozartmerv, in my book you did wrong but thats part of learning. Thanks for sharing your new found knowledge with us.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Admin]

 

 

[hihosland]

So can a RAA pilot carry one passenger on his/her lap?

 

 

[Guest ROM]

Thanks Mozartmerv! I had'nt thought of that situation but now I am very clear about the requirements if the situation ever arises.

 

To hihosland; I assume you mean, can a RAA pilot carry an infant or small child on their lap so long as they are the only two persons on board.

 

My reaction is that is; If anybody tries to do that while also trying to take off, fly and land an aircraft has to be right out of their cotton picking minds and are merely flying around looking for place to kill themselves and an innocent child!

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I took it as a joke but treating it seriously:

 

The CAO's (which I am not sure are the right place to look) clearly state an adult passenger may carry someone on their lap. Passenger excludes pilots so the answer in this instance would be no.

 

Of course the RAA may think differently to the CAO's...

 

 

[Guest terry]

airsick, Do you think you should be judge and jury in this matter.You made the comment who are we to judge then continued on to do just that This is a very serious breech of regs. Moz's as pilot in command has a responiblity to have read the op's manual, not taken his instructors word for it. In moz's favor his seen his mistake, his set about putting it right, his contacted RAA and I sure in the same honourable way he'll accept his punishment what ever that may be.

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

I know this is now spread across two threads but here goes.

 

Motza -- I think you might have provided more of a springboard for discussion about instruction and interpretation than you credit yourself with.

 

You should be thanked not sledged.

 

In your other thread, where all this started I posted my thoughts about the requirement to have communication with any passenger having access to the dual controls. Another thought would be how alienated a child would feel, or the passenger that surrendered his headphones. I am assuming that three way comms would not be available on a two seater

 

What about noise levels?

 

I hope you or Drifter Drifter or anyone else doesn’t take this personal but hands up those of us that would have our infant on our passengers lap in a car complete with lap loop belt while travelling along the highway at 117 kilometres per hour -- the final approach speed in nil wind conditions with full flaps in a Jabiru 160

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I am not sure how my post came across as being judgemental but maybe I should have said something like, "In my belief I think he broke the rules" rather than "in my book he did wrong". Apologies for this but I think my point still stands.

 

Good on Moz for sharing with us a potential trap for others.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ok guys...we can back and forth about the rules all day...in then end my mission has been achieved, and that was to allert any piolts that may have read my orriginal post's and thought i was correct in what i said regarding the loopbelt's etc...while i may have been right about the GA Reg's, i was flying an RAA acft..

 

And yes airsick, i should have read the ops manual regarding this...in my defence, how many of us look up the rules before each flight/? i was in the habbit of checking evrything with my CFI as the rules are often quite ambigious as we've proven here today...im the type of person who would myuch rather speak to someone in theknow and say " just tell me if im operating within the rules"...or planning to...

 

Im not in the habbit of questioning the word of my chieff, and honeslty who umong you are?? In the aviation culture your captain has final say and your chieff's word should be able to be taken to the bank..

 

Having said that, i still hold myself fully responsable for what transpired..i wasn't a student, i am a fully certified pilot with xcountry and PASSENGER endorsements..i should have known...

 

I just hope that drifter driver isn't out flying around with his baby onboard today...please, if anyone knows him personally, can you contact him and get him up to speed ??

 

Regarding the comments about having a child in a car travelling at that speed with a loopbelt on, i redirect you to the GA standards...theoretically this can happen in acft with approach speeds far greater then the jabiru.. We don't make the rules ...we just TRY to abide by them... Whats the differance between that and say a child travelling in a car in the middle seat with only a lapbelt on??...

 

 

[Yenn]

If someone finds they have done wrong or just made a mistake it is all our interests that they explain the situation. That way our attention is drawn to it and we all learn.

 

Thanks Motvartmerv. By the way I think it would be the only way for me to get two into the plane, but that is illegal as it is registered as a single seater. Would be interesting though.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I just hope that drifter driver isn't out flying around with his baby onboard today...please, if anyone knows him personally, can you contact him and get him up to speed ??

Sunny is one of my mates and trust me, he would not have his little daughter flying around in the backseat of the Drifter...yet. Well done for realising your mistake mate. General rule is more than two persons in a recreational aircraft is a no no. You have learned from that now and are going forward. Hopefully the punishment (if any) is not too severe. It's best you did speak up and ask instead of having the RAA view the video and tanning your behind down the track for keeping it a secret and hey, how about when I took Emma flying when she was pregnant with Luke? Now am i in trouble??

 

 

[Guest brentc]

In the GA world you would be able to, but the infant must be attached via a CASA approved infant restraint that attaches to the passengers seatbelt, so simply putting them on on your lap wouldn't suffice in any aircraft.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

In the GA world you would be able to, but the infant must be attached via a CASA approved infant restraint that attaches to the passengers seatbelt, so simply putting them on on your lap wouldn't suffice in any aircraft.

Yes, they would be the infant harnesses you 'acquire by accident' from the airlines when you fly with them. I swear last time we left it attached to Luke by accident.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Don't give the kid anything solid to play with. last thing you need is a belt over the head with a full bottle of milk.

 

 

[John Brandon]

Might I suggest those who contemplate carrying children in ultralights read section 3.4 of a document I've prepared for the March issue of the RA-Aus journal. It can be found at www.raa.asn.au/nonlinked/deceleration.html ; I also suggest you google 'child restraint system aircraft'

 

cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest disperse]

Yes but if you put them in a box ..... Then their luggage Right !!!!

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

thanks for sharing the future article John.

 

there is also a good article on this topic in the current issue of AOPA magasine.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Good article John, though I'd have to ask why energy is expressed in Newton-Metres throughout the article, instead of Joules.

 

It is noted that Newtons x Metres is numerically equivalent mechanical energy of Joules, but may confuse some readers who would normally associate Newton Metres with a measurement of torque, not knowing that both expressions may be technically correct.

 

For clarification:

 

For Torque, the force in Netwons is at right angles to the distance vector from the rotational axis in metres.

 

For Energy, the force in Netwons is in the same direction as the distance in metres.

 

Rgds,

 

Glen