The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns.

[skippydiesel]

A friend of mine was killed when the driver of an oncoming furniture van fell asleep and veered across the road into him.

 

Check out my comment - duty times for ALL heavy/commercial vehicle drivers

 

Another friend, a police officer who'd done the defensive/pursuit courses was hit on two occasions while driving through intersections in marked police cars. Both hits occurred behind the eye line, one rolled the car over IN the Melbourne CBD.

 

So incompetent drivers  Check out my comment - higher training/testing standards & 5 yearly testing.

 

That law has saved so many thousands of lives that you'll probably have to live with it.

 

Thus speaks the the brain washed

 

The decision is yours, which is why public liability lawsuits occur, but a percentage of the 16.5 million drivers have a problem managing the basics, the population wants the road toll down or else, so there's still prescription, which the taxpayers pay for.

 

Are you arguing for or against my position??

 

Yes, motivation in corporate management works much better than orders, and there is plenty of safety motivation out there, but it's the 16.5 million that ensures as stick is required as well as a carrot.

 

Sorry if I offend but BS!! These safety measures could have been encouraged through insurance, publicity campaigns, reward systems BUT OH NO you want Big Brother to tell you what & when to do it .We have done it for smoking, drinking, family planning, vaccination and AIDS why not safety belts and helmets??

 

 

 

 

[Student Pilot]

3 pages of thread migration, well past drift!

 

 

[spacesailor]

Compulsary Helmets !

 

I gave uo motor-cycling when that came in. 50 years later my children & grandchildren forced a helmet on my head, They were shocked how hard it was.

 

Bike still sits in their shed, Unused.

 

The cops NEVER breath test pub-patrons. THEY let them on to the ROAD then get them ! ( or try to ). THEN RBT Me 6 yes SIX times in one day. BULLL_SHEEET to that, IT"S Revenue Raising.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[turboplanner]

Skippy you said you didn’t want laws to protect people from their own stupidity. I gave you the two examples to show that people who are killed or injured did not necessarily do something stupid, and there are thousands of those people every year; they are the ones we need to protect.

 

 

[turboplanner]

As with many jobs, copper risk a lot if they decide to do the right thing:

[ATTACH]38389[/ATTACH]

The police have done an excellent job at the interface and it’s not fair to blame them for the policies which involve thousands of people around Australia pulling detailed stastistics from actual crashes, others who use that to redesign cars, roads, materials, signage, barriers, others updating the environment to allow for cycles, others researching and introducing new weight and dimensional limits and so on. It’s a much bigger picture than most people think.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I agree Turbs. I'm not blaming police for stupid policies; just making the observation that they are as human as the rest of us.

 

 Several family members are with the coppers. 

 

 

[M61A1]

3 pages of thread migration, well past drift!

If people didn’t want to talk about it, nothing would be said. 

 

Clearly it’s something  people have strong views on. 

 

Pilots don’t always talk about aeroplanes..

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Skippy you said you didn’t want laws to protect people from their own stupidity. I gave you the two examples to show that people who are killed or injured did not necessarily do something stupid, and there are thousands of those people every year; they are the ones we need to protect.

Driving is inherently dangerous. The skills/knowledge required, to be let loose on the public road should be hard won and once achieved highly regarded. We have made it a right, so almost any idiot can obtain a license and except in a few circumstances keep it for the rest of their active life.  

 

In my humble opinion the authorities should put strategies in place to minimise the chance of reckless/unskilled drivers being on the road.

 

In recognition of the potentially lethal machines that vehicles can become in the hands of the wrong person, the standard of driver  training and testing should be very much higher.

 

Shonky training/testing organisations should be arrested and jailed in recognition of the danger they have unleashed on the unsuspecting public (no different to drug pushers).

 

In recognition that we are all human and that skills/knowledge can deteriorate, regular re testing  (BFR if you will) should be introduced.

 

Accidents will happen with the best  training & intent, cant be totally avoided but lets not "throw the baby" out with the bathwater and punish all for the misdeeds/incompetence of a few.

 

Why do we never seem to hear of the courts banning someone from holding a license for life.

 

I know of;

 

• Individuals who have been involved a many rear end collisions, that is people have driven into them - the other driver is a fault. It would appear that no one has ever asked how come this person is so unlucky.
   
   
  
• Many others who can not reverse park, have no  understanding of how a traffic circle should work, hog the right lane because they fear merging when the left lane runs out - in the main these are drivers who consider themselves to be safe  and responsible .
   
   
  
• an astonishing number who never check their tyre pressures
   
   
  
• and so on and so on
   
   
  

 

 

To me its a fact that we have taken an inherently dangerous machine and dumbed down the requirements to operate one to the level of potty training.

 

 

[onetrack]

Why do we never seem to hear of the courts banning someone from holding a license for life

There are quite a few drivers in W.A. who have been handed a life ban from driving. I can't speak for other States.

 

Unfortunately, numbers of these banned drivers then continue to drive, without a licence - and they have then gone on to kill/maim others with their badly-driven vehicle.

 

I don't know what you can do to prevent people from driving (or flying) when they have been banned for life - apart from lock them up for good. But there's no provision in the law to do that.

 

W.A. hoon banned from driving for life

 

Serial W.A. DUI driver banned from driving for life

 

 

[turboplanner]

A trike flyer boasted on here a couple of years ago that about a third of trike flyers don't bother with licences because of all the crap. That might or might not be true, but if you watch Highway Patrol or RBT, it seems a large chunk of the motoring public also don't bother with licences because they don't believe in laws. A large volume also didn't bother to register their cars for the same reason. At one stage I worked close to central Melbourne in St Kilda Road. We used to park in the side streets and it was quite a walk. One day I happened to notice an out of date reg sticker;out of date by about five years! I started to look at the stickers as I walked and there were over 20 in a 500 metre street. Millions of dollars are outstanding for parking fines in Victoria, many people owing $30,000 or more. Digital technology is cleaning up the fines and registration issues, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the new "mobile phone" cameras going into Victoria Police cars also have facial recognition so that may be the way to clean up the licence issue. Down the track wit connected cars , it's technically feasible to automatically stop the car at a stop sign or red light. Virtually all drivers stop now, but inattention causes some roll though and fatal crashes.

 

 

[M61A1]

I would like to believe I'm no hoon, as I don't race, do burnouts or other such things, but the list of offences that can be labelled as "hooning" has got out of hand, and the punishment far exceeds what is necessary in many cases. I don't believe it's a consistent approach, when you can be banned for life for burnout, but kill a child due to incompetence and you just get a short suspension.

 

Part of the problem with severe penalties is they give the perpetrator a "got nothing to lose" mentality if there's a choice between doing a runner and just copping it. I don't know what you do with DUI, Iknown a few people that just drove as normal, including after drinking despite not being licenced. I don't think our laws really handle the reality that the decision to not drive when unlicenced as essentially voluntary.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would like to believe I'm no hoon, as I don't race, do burnouts or other such things, but the list of offences that can be labelled as "hooning" has got out of hand, and the punishment far exceeds what is necessary in many cases. I don't believe it's a consistent approach, when you can be banned for life for burnout, but kill a child due to incompetence and you just get a short suspension.

I have to take some responsibility for at least one of the offences "failure to control a motor vehicle" - wheelspin.  there was a spike in young driver fatalities due to drag racing in our local area, and since we had racing experience, our group decided we would trying to help police solve the problem as a community service. We had a meeting where highway patrol officers complained that they had trouble locating the drag races (simply fixed by turning the knob on their CBs), and detecting any offences, since the drag races in 80 zones started at a set of lights and finished when the first one reached 80, so they had been resorting to going through the 100 or so spectator cars looking for roadworthy faults. I suggested there were thing they could legislate for, such as the nose lifting at the lights+ engine noise + wheelspin. They settles on wheelspin and added their own thoughts with crushing of cars. The first driver I can remember charged for failing to control his car was in his mid 70s and accidently spun the wheels on a wet road. 6 people were killed drag racing in the area before anything was done and another four or so have dies since due to gum trees on the median strips. and around Australia the hoons account for regular fatalites,so while there is a scaled set of penalties for the drag racers, they shouldn't be applied to the more law abiding public. Police have discretion to ensure that.

 

Killing a child or family member and getting a short suspension is determined by a Court hearing evidence. The cases are always emotional with the family showing up for the media and pointing out that their child/relative received a life sentence whereas the person who killed them would we getting away with a fine, getting out in six months etc. but we operate on law based on the Magna Carta where the punishment is related to the degree of crime, so that's a complicated and different area we can't do much about.

 

Part of the problem with severe penalties is they give the perpetrator a "got nothing to lose" mentality if there's a choice between doing a runner and just copping it.

Victoria had a couple of fatal chases, which the community arced up on  the danger to them, so Vicpol adopted a policy of disengaging if the pursuit had any risk. The result was a disaster, as you would imagine, and killed more people so it was stopped.

 

I don't know what you do with DUI, Iknown a few people that just drove as normal, including after drinking despite not being licenced. I don't think our laws really handle the reality that the decision to not drive when unlicenced as essentially voluntary.

Enough people are doing this, and killing themselves and other people to warrant alcohol (and drug) interlocks on all cars. The problem with alcoholics is that despite their best intentions at the beginning of the day, they can never come to grips with the fact that alcohol is a depressant, so if they have underlying problems, they have a drink to calm themselves, that makes them depressed and they start the cycle. Very hard to get them out of the cycle; I've been working on one intensively for over a year now and just making tiny advances month by month.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just announced:

 

Road toll for Australia in 20018 down 78 people (6.8%) from 2017 - Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Economics (BITRE) figures.

 

SA down 19%

 

Vic down 17.4%

 

NSW down 9%

 

Qld =

 

http://www.primemovermag.com.au/news/article/notable-decline-in-national-road-toll

 

 

[Student Pilot]

If people didn’t want to talk about it, nothing would be said. 

Clearly it’s something  people have strong views on. 

 

Pilots don’t always talk about aeroplanes..

M16A1

 

Yes. When the thread title is The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns

 

and the sub title is....................Wearing rose coloured glasses when buying a plane (I assume he meant aircraft as this is a flying site and not woodworking)

 

Then I expect to read about that subject not on my mates truck driving experience in post peak hour transits.

 

Obviously I was mistaken as you clearly state people with strong views on anything other than the thread can post whatever they like. I have no problems with that and was just making a comment. 

 

So with that said and allowing for reclassification the weather reporting to favor the coal coalition, how does that influence the perceived changes in migrating habits of the crested Arctic Tern? Does the differing sea water temperature from state to state findings in parallel areas contribute to the changing of protocols for the submission of all mandatory drafts of coastal erosion of degraded areas reports?

 

Your views on these pressing subjects?

 

wearing rose-coloured glasses when buying a plane.

 

 

[M61A1]

while there is a scaled set of penalties for the drag racers, they shouldn't be applied to the more law abiding public. Police have discretion to ensure that.

In my experience, police discretion is a very misused principal. The sort of people who become cops are not the sort of people to be making ethical decisions. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

In QLD, Newman's anti bikie laws resulted in a world of pain for average motorcyclists at the hands of cops with discretion.

 

I believe QLDs road toll was down too, despite record numbers of speeding offences. Authorities will take credit and when it spikes again, the community will be blamed. Peaks and troughs.

 

I am familiar with some of the alcohol issues through several acquaintances.

 

At a mandatory safety day a few years back, we had a doctor give us a really engaging lecture about drug and alcohol management. One of his concerns was that the first thing alcohol affects is the frontal lobe where rational thought and decision making processes happen, with the idea that one of the worst areas was between 0.02 and 0.05 where you feel and are physically quite capable, but same bit that makes you happy and relaxed also allows poor decisions to be made, in comparison to someone properly drunk who knows they are quite impaired. 

 

Perhaps our magistrates could look at some of Jordan Peterson's earlier research on the behaviour of drunks, where his research established that when someone is drunk, they know exactly what they are doing, and the consequences, they just don't care.

 

My point about "nothing to lose" was to look at it differently than most authorities seem to. Consider that when you stand to lose your licence and your car, the likelihood that the "offender" will risk a chase and other lives is quite high, You could also apply that logic to our Family court. Magistrates think because they made a ruling it will automatically be followed, they seemingly can't conceive otherwise.

 

They settles on wheelspin and added their own thoughts with crushing of cars

The number of cops I've seen do exactly that, the smoking U-turn often over double white lines to catch someone going 10 k's over.

 

Those who do the psych assessments for QLD police have a lot to answer for. I have a theory that most traffic cops were either bullied at school and want revenge on society or were bullies at school and want to continue their career.

 

They could do for hoons what they do for junkies, give them a place away from the public and let them wreck their own lives. Motorsport has become so over regulated and expensive it's no surprise they take it to the streets.

 

I can see the same may happen with rec flying, the harder they make it, the less people will be doing it legally.

 

 I have no problems with that and was just making a comment. 

As was I.  I think that it's been said before that we need a tongue in cheek emoji. I'm sure there will be opinions on your questions if that's what people want to talk about.

 

Often threads drift away from the title, and I for one quite like that we can just go where it drifts without too much carrying on from the purists.

 

 

[turboplanner]

M16A1

Yes. When the thread title is The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns

 

and the sub title is....................Wearing rose coloured glasses when buying a plane (I assume he meant aircraft as this is a flying site and not woodworking)

 

Then I expect to read about that subject not on my mates truck driving experience in post peak hour transits.

 

Obviously I was mistaken as you clearly state people with strong views on anything other than the thread can post whatever they like. I have no problems with that and was just making a comment. 

 

So with that said and allowing for reclassification the weather reporting to favor the coal coalition, how does that influence the perceived changes in migrating habits of the crested Arctic Tern? Does the differing sea water temperature from state to state findings in parallel areas contribute to the changing of protocols for the submission of all mandatory drafts of coastal erosion of degraded areas reports?

 

Your views on these pressing subjects?

 

wearing rose-coloured glasses when buying a plane.

There is nothing at all to stop you posting about The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns   .

 

You can't make others post about it if they've exhausted the subject.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

If you want serious thread drift then say something about the mythical global warming. (Just watch what happens!)??

 

 

[Student Pilot]

If you want serious thread drift then say something about the mythical global warming. (Just watch what happens!)??

Refer post 114

 

 

[Student Pilot]

There is nothing at all to stop you posting about The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns   .

You can't make others post about it if they've exhausted the subject.

You say there's nothing to stop me from posting on the thread where I posted a comment about posting, you comment on something that I already did, doesn't that make your post redundant?

 

 

[turboplanner]

In my experience, police discretion is a very misused principal. The sort of people who become cops are not the sort of people to be making ethical decisions.

The discretion is for leniency; If they arrest or charge you it's only going to go as far as the law allows.

 

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What does that mean?

 

I believe QLDs road toll was down too, despite record numbers of speeding offences.

No, these are the latest figures, it's well behind the two leaders. Part of Victoria's success is due to extensive installation of wire barriers.

 

I am familiar with some of the alcohol issues through several acquaintances.

 

At a mandatory safety day a few years back, we had a doctor give us a really engaging lecture about drug and alcohol management. One of his concerns was that the first thing alcohol affects is the frontal lobe where rational thought and decision making processes happen, with the idea that one of the worst areas was between 0.02 and 0.05 where you feel and are physically quite capable, but same bit that makes you happy and relaxed also allows poor decisions to be made, in comparison to someone properly drunk who knows they are quite impaired. 

 

Perhaps our magistrates could look at some of Jordan Peterson's earlier research on the behaviour of drunks, where his research established that when someone is drunk, they know exactly what they are doing, and the consequences, they just don't care.

The medical profession (broad industry) has done a terrible job with alcohol. Suicide psychologists, Detox psychologists, Hospital Emergency, and Detox staff don't communicate with each other about the patient who is virtually left to make his/her own recovery. In the Bowen Basin coalfield area, Queensland Mental Health has 12 offices; not much good just talking to people.  What you are saying about the stages and behaviour of drunks is true, but at the end of the pipeline the brutal truth is that people affected by alcohol have to be taken off the road.

 

Magistrates think because they made a ruling it will automatically be followed, they seemingly can't conceive otherwise.

They don't do that; they are required to make a decision within a framework which is best for the children. Family Court is probably one of the most traumatic experiences a person can have, but it takes its toll on the Magistrates too.

 

The number of cops I've seen do exactly that, the smoking U-turn often over double white lines to catch someone going 10 k's over.

I take it that your motorcycle would make you a target, so next time they try to book you for 5 km over the limit, tell them you're going to book them for failure to control a motor vehicle, and they can see how it is to get their car crushed.

 

Those who do the psych assessments for QLD police have a lot to answer for. I have a theory that most traffic cops were either bullied at school and want revenge on society or were bullies at school and want to continue their career.

The cameras are a lot fairer.

 

They could do for hoons what they do for junkies, give them a place away from the public and let them wreck their own lives.

You could, but the minute you did that you wold become liable for the inevitable accidents. Couldn't see anyone wanting to lose their house for that.

 

Motorsport has become so over regulated and expensive it's no surprise they take it to the streets.

Motor Racing is fine; the chances of being killed are incredibly small, and you can enter classes and types where your outlay will be less that for someone who is a heavy smoker.

 

The hoons aren't motor racing, they're buying a car, buying engine accessories to increase the power as much as possible, and having drag races, forgetting about matching the suspension and tyres to the new power, and not worrying about racing harnesses and roll cages etc. and they take passengers, often hanging out of the windows as they encourage the crowd. When they tire of drag racing, they go round and round with the wheels spinning until they blow a tyre, and then they go home. It's a cult thing.

 

I can see the same may happen with rec flying, the harder they make it, the less people will be doing it legally.

Well, aside from making 75kt Drifters fly a 500' circuit, what's become harder in the last 12 months?

 

 

[turboplanner]

You say there's nothing to stop me from posting on the thread where I posted a comment about posting, you comment on something that I already did, doesn't that make your post redundant?

Probably

 

 

[spacesailor]

Glenn1,

 

Apollegees, But The thread drift is Threatening me.

 

"Shonky training/testing organisations should be arrested and jailed in recognition of the danger they have unleashed on the unsuspecting public (no different to drug pushers)."

 

I NEED those Shonkies, I am Bureaucaticly inept.  When your "pen-pusher's/teacher's & other bureaucrats, sit around trying to find "work", dreaming up concockted wonders of literature (again had to consult My Dictionary), It bodes disastor for the likes of me.

 

Four year's untill they "BUREAUACRATES" take my driving licence off me. ONE blooodi crash in SIXTY ONE years on the road, and I was not the driver, In my 1 crash !.

 

I thought I was doing good at my flight training. untill the TEST, then NO blooodi good, Havent flown since !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Heyo Spacesailor, sounds like your a bit down. Have you thought of trying another training organisation? Different training organisations have different ways and thoughts on how to train. I knew a bloke who didn't start flying till he was 63, took him a few goes to get his licence but then used to fly himself around in his Auster. Having said that there are some people who shouldn't be driving or flying due to lack of coordination skills. Generally if you can drive a car then piloting an aircraft is not a huge step.

 

You need to get an honest older instructor who will give you a direct answer, no bullshitting. 

 

 

[old man emu]

Hey you blokes! Let me reiterate the original theme of this thread - don't go looking to buy an aeroplane whilst looking through rose-coloured glasses and get surprised when it costs a motza to get it airworthy.

 

Sure this thread has drifted. Maybe the drift should have been stopped on page 2, but it wasn't. Opening another thread on the topic of road safety would have foreshortened the original, but the new one would have been just as long.

 

What annoys me are the comments made without fact checking. For example, there are two different offences relating to driving in the No.2 Lane (middle lane) of a three-laned highway.

 

1. If the posted speed limit is greater than 80 kph  AND the road is not congested, then it is an offence to travel in any other than the No 1 (kerbside lane) [Part 11 Division 2 Rule 130 (1a)]
    
    
   
2. From the position of a sign worded "Keep Left Unless Overtaking" to a sign worded "End Keep Left Unless Overtaking" [Part 11 Division 2 Rule 130 (3a)]
    
    
   

 

 

Police Discretion

 

This is a poorly applied facility available to police in the performance of their duty.

 

In the old days Police discretion was mainly used for trivial matters - littering, offensive language, being a dickhead in a public place etc. This is the old "kick 'em in the arse and send them home" method of keeping the Peace.

 

Police used to have some discretion in traffic offences -

 

Driver: " I'm speeding because my wife rang me at work and out 4-year-old has suddenly become very ill and the wife wants me home."

 

Constable: " Well, you aren't going to do your kid or your wife much good if you wrap yourself around a tree and end up in hospital or worse. Slow down so you can deal with your child when you get home. Hope the kid is OK!"

 

(NOTE: This was in pre-mobile phone days)

 

Unfortunately, Internal Affairs spread the propaganda that all uniformed police could be bought off. Internal Affairs even ran entrapment operations to detect police who were clean, but over used discretion. Also, crims were happy to sully a constable's name by claiming they slung a quid to have a traffic ticket dropped.

 

Eventually to actions of I.A. stopped police using discretion in cases where it would be correct to do so. So now, if a constable accuses you of a minor matter, you can be sure that action will be taken and no amount of pleading letters will stop it. You'll have to take it to Court. The good thing is that if the allegation does not involve a radar/photograph detected offence, you should be able to get off with a good defence rebuttal of Crown evidence because very few police actually know the Law to present the proofs of the offence to a Court.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Eventually to actions of I.A. stopped police using discretion in cases where it would be correct to do so. So now, if a constable accuses you of a minor matter, you can be sure that action will be taken and no amount of pleading letters will stop it. You'll have to take it to Court. The good thing is that if the allegation does not involve a radar/photograph detected offence, you should be able to get off with a good defence rebuttal of Crown evidence because very few police actually know the Law to present the proofs of the offence to a Court.

What happens in Victoria now is the cop comes up, and may say something like "I'm going to give you a warning now, but if we see you doing it again, we'll be issuing a fine"

 

So he has not made an allegation, there's no question about corruption etc., and many people go away and never make the same mistake again.