Bungendore incident

[tillmanr]

The ABC online reporting that a Piper Tomahawk has encountered the terrain. Pilot appears to be ok. 

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Canberra Aeronautical Club member hospitalised after NSW plane crash

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-23/man-hospitalised-after-small-plane-crashes-into-tree-in-nsw/10843668

 

The plane was privately owned, but the Canberra Aeronautical Club has since confirmed one of its members was flying.

 

It is believed downwinds pushed the aircraft into the tree line shortly after take-off, causing it to clip the trees and crash.

 

A spokesman from NSW Police, which is investigating the incident, said the man was the only person in the plane at the time of the incident.

 

 

 

[kgwilson]

The owner might struggle to buff that out. I wonder what the weather was like. looks great from the photo but was it crossed or gusty?

 

 

[Methusala]

My home base. Weather was 15kts from the east blowing over a ridge. In those conditions I would turn right after take off to avoid the rotor off the ridge. There is a power line up there so lucky to avoid that and also extremely fortunate there was no fire. Some times I am with CASA, ie. the fewer people in the air the less chance of a catastrophe!

 

 

[onetrack]

That's one more Tomahawk that will never fly again. He's a lucky man, should buy himself a Lotto ticket after that narrow escape from the Grim Reaper.

 

Just one of those hefty trees in the wrong spot, and his family would be organising a funeral right about now.

 

 

[facthunter]

No one is immune from a local wind event or a mini twister. Often the leaves will give you some indication. A bit of extra climb speed also will help  if you can arrange it but I've been slammed hard back in the runway from  about 100 feet on take off. Luckily there was still runway below me.. Nev

 

 

[Thruster88]

Propeller blade appears undamaged, unless pilot pulled power when he realised it wasn't happening. Wind around 20kt would have produced some turbulence. 

 

 

[kgwilson]

The top half looks OK, probably not so for the bottom half. If it was spinning though you'd expect to damage both blades unless it came to a stop in less than 1 revolution.

 

 

[facthunter]

 The firewall forward has taken a bit of force. to bend it to the right. That's likely to be from the other blade. The cockpit part has done well and likely the door opened easily. Apart from the T tail I don't mind the tomahawk. . Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

Not called the Traumahawk for nothing.

 

kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

 I make up my own mind concerning rumours about aircraft, Kaz. If I'd taken much notice of popular opinion I would have never done the flying I ended up doing in the Austers I have flown. One reason I did was they were cheaper, perhaps because of said opinions and often a bit "rough" as they weren't used much. You had to give them a good preflight and take an old cigarette pack to roll up and put between the sliding window and the fixed one to stop it constantly opening in flight. I'm glad I did fly them and got used to their slow speed approach, capability. Coming from District Park, Newcastle the precautionary approach was normal. Going Bankstown to Kingsford Smith and ending up with a DC-6 close behind was another interesting experience where my approach speed was above my normal cruise speed. You have to adapt. Austers are OK, even the little Archer.  Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

My experience with the PA38-112 was one where I lost elevator control on a glide approach; it stopped flying 6’ off the ground which made for an uncomfortable arrival. My airspeed was somewhat higher than the POH stalling speed and the T-tail didn’t respond well without the benefit of some power on the airscrew to assist it. I wouldn’t now deliberately arrive without at least a trickle of power on.

 

I didn’t like the spin characteristics much either as it went into a steep nose down very quickly and the spin rate seemed to increase at first...bit disconcerting. 

 

It has has a reputation for spinning easily if rudder is mishandled and it just doesn’t seem to me to be a good proposition for a trainer. AOPA America recommends spin training only with PA38 experienced instructors.

 

the Auster has a quite docile stall ?

 

kaz

 

 

[gibby]

I think there a good trainer, you just need a good instructor, they teach you how to use the rudder in a stall. On a hot day they could do with a few more pony's as climb performance is fairly average at MTOW. They had a bad reputation in the States in there early years for killing instructors and students from the tail departing the airframe during spinning, but they fixed that problem. By the look of the photo and the damage, the airframe has held up fairly well considering the location and trees

 

Hope the pilot has a speedy recovery 

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Canberra Aeronautical Club member hospitalised after NSW plane crash

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-23/man-hospitalised-after-small-plane-crashes-into-tree-in-nsw/10843668

 

The plane was privately owned, but the Canberra Aeronautical Club has since confirmed one of its members was flying.

 

It is believed downwinds pushed the aircraft into the tree line shortly after take-off, causing it to clip the trees and crash.

 

A spokesman from NSW Police, which is investigating the incident, said the man was the only person in the plane at the time of the incident.

 

Glad the chap was OK Sue. . . usual press comment, 'Downwinds' responsible. . . . .

 

Quick Question Sue, what Rans do you fly I wonder ?. . we had a Rans fly in at Otherton last year, they are a very popular brand.  Models and Engines were varied,. . from Rotax 447 'S7' model with single seat, to 503 two strokes to Rotax 912s, . .and yesterday,. . Mate Tony breezed in flying a Jabiru powered Rans S6 Coyote. . . fantastic climb performance,. . . but then Tony can be a bit of a showoff. .  ( Every airfield has a 'Tony' who is indestructible. . .everyone else was using Rwy 16R,. . . but on departure, he used 07R. . .  gotta stay away from the sheeple innit. . . I've asked for a ticket to his wake. . .

 

We used to have Two Rans S-tens on the site,. . but they ARE a little challenging, especially for pilots who are more than 150 centimetres in personal vertical displacement. . . I ferried one from Blackpool to our airfield once, ( 532 Rotax 2 stroke internal pull rope starter,( which came compete with a claw hammer to reach the handle from the pilot's seat. . ) and every time I looked left and right, the canopy snagged my headset and I was staring to the ear cup. . .they are OK for limited aeros too, but NOT in the UK. . .

 

Good range of airframes, though the S6 model can turn very nasty if mishandled on the base to final turn.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

My experience with the PA38-112 was one where I lost elevator control on a glide approach; it stopped flying 6’ off the ground which made for an uncomfortable arrival. My airspeed was somewhat higher than the POH stalling speed and the T-tail didn’t respond well without the benefit of some power on the airscrew to assist it. I wouldn’t now deliberately arrive without at least a trickle of power on.

I didn’t like the spin characteristics much either as it went into a steep nose down very quickly and the spin rate seemed to increase at first...bit disconcerting. 

 

It has has a reputation for spinning easily if rudder is mishandled and it just doesn’t seem to me to be a good proposition for a trainer. AOPA America recommends spin training only with PA38 experienced instructors.

 

the Auster has a quite docile stall ?

 

kaz

The Auster is a lovely, Docile Pussycat. . . I tried to buy VH-ARX. . .the owner would not sell.   After returning to  the UK, I saw it in an Aussie magazine in Airline colours, based in East Gipplsand in 2009. . . can't recall the Airline, but it was predominantly silver and red livery. .

 

 

[facthunter]

 I doubt the steep nose down entry to a spin is due to the tail and many planes tighten up in the first few turns. T tails put a lot of load into the fin and there may well be a question of where the dirty air from the mainplanes end up with a high AoA.. As said, a bit of power may well aid that situation.. Flying tails are efficient but structurally I'm not a fan of them. bit inclined to flutter at speed.  aeroelastic.  Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

.... They had a bad reputation in the States in there early years for killing instructors and students from the tail departing the airframe during spinning ....

Nope, see http://www.cfidarren.com/r-mccabe.htm

 

 

[Thruster88]

In the 40 year history of the PA-38 in Australia, one spin accident by a fresh RPL (R = restricted) and zero in flight structural failure. There are 58 tomahawks  on the VH register today.

 

 

[facthunter]

 The link provided by DJP is very informative. The stall is inconsistent as regards nose dropping and falls away to either side unpredictably and  quickly . The Airfoil shape GAW 1 and the known oil canning of the wing top surface  say it all for me. The large variation from plane to plane would be "explained" by the wings inaccurate top surface shape  under  load and close to the stall..  Nev.

 

 

[Methusala]

The Piper failed to negotiate the ridge by a matter of a few ft. There was no ground impact prior to the wing striking a tree which resulted in a 180 impacting the other wing. The tail cone was almost detached and the prop tips were sheared by impact. I think the engine was delivering full power and the plane struck with a high nose attitude. The passenger's side was deformed inward. The pilot should be buying a bucket full of lottery tickets. 

 

 

[facthunter]

Having had  more than several extreme involvements with errant winds, that should have written off the plane I can easily consider such a cause to be the fact here. While there are issues with the Tomahawk  but I doubt it's the reason here. I wouldn't rush to blame the pilot either (as we usually do)… We like to think accidents only happen to other people. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

This accident illustrates the variability of factors which can conspire  to bring an aviator unstuck. Hindsight is often 20/20 and gives observers a comfortable leg-up. The purpose of this section of the forum(I believe), is to give us the opportunity of putting forward our observations for the consideration of more fortunate pilots. That is we can respectfully offer our opinions for others to debate. No disrespect meant by me. Don

 

 

[poteroo]

Weather was 15kts from the east blowing over a ridge. In those conditions I would turn right after take off to avoid the rotor off the ridge.

Always.

 

When it comes to a choice between climbing toward, or away, from rising terrain - away wins every time, despite the downwind component increasing as you turn away, or whether it's a RH turn 'against' the accepted circuit LH turn.

 

I was thinking about our general reluctlance to go against the Regs, or the 'rules', even when in some danger. It's highly unlikely that you would cause a flight risk to another aircraft off a remote farm strip, and in any case, you would have made a radio call of your intentions. Sometimes, a pilots gotta do what a pilots gotta do to stay alive!

 

Every day we see the same risk averse behaviour on the road. Car wishes to overtake truck going up a hill, using the provided double lane. However, driver doesn't want to break law by exceeding 100/110 - so sits on exact speed and ever so slowly overtakes and finally gets past after using up a good 1 km of passing lane. IMHO, this road behaviour actually increases risk because very few frustrated drivers can pass the slow traffic when the opportunity presents. If it isn't along a double lane 'passing' section - then it is exposing the overtaker to what I'd consider much greater risk than had they increased speed and broken the limit, albeit temporarily.

 

Anyway, happy days, one lucky pilot lives to fly again.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Methusala, my comment is "general" and in no  way directed at you. The forum is over to everybody. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

General circuit direction is to the r/h to avoid overflying noise sensitive dwellings. Nev, I didn't take offense. I am in total agreement with Poteroo re: aviation and road behavior. Don